Symptoms... I've got symptoms - TheDieselGarage.com
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Symptoms... I've got symptoms

Bought new in 2005, my "Chateau" E350 with 6.0 is completely stock. The engine has just over 200K miles, and both it and transmission have not been opened.

In 2012 I did replace the FICM, and it ran well (with a couple of leaks) until the end of March 2017.

Now, it is dying on the road, and requires a lot of spins to restart. Here is what I know!

1. When cold, it starts easily after a fairly long lean on the starter
2. When warm, it may or may not die while idling, or while on the road. More later...
3. When hot, it runs well, and I have taken it out of town with little fear of it dying

4. When warm, a quick turn to either the right or left will often precipitate a stall, actually I have to go quite slow to guarantee it will keep running
5. When warm, following a stall, the engine will restart after 5-8 attempts to start. Usually, it will start to turn easily after a while, but die if the starter is released. This will be repeated several times, before it gets up to 700 rpm and stays running. A quick blip of the pedal then makes it appear that nothing happened, and I can get back on the road.... until the next time. The next time could be 100 ft down the road, or not until the engine goes from cold to warm again.

I took the van to a good local shop on three occasions when I first experienced the stalls. They were never able to duplicate my problem, and didn't want to work on it without experiencing the failure.

So, I kept on driving it, and compiling experience about the stall, and kept narrowing the experience. For example, at first I though it had to do with hills, incline and decline.
After a while I realized that the inclines and declines near my home where the engine stalled were out of curves. (It still may have an incline problem, but it is far less sure than the curves.)

____________________

Now, I have again replaced the driver board in the FICM (not the entire FICM), to no change whatsoever. Not worse, not better!

Then I disconnected the ICP. Maybe it starts quicker when cold, but that's all, if it isn't my imagination.

NOTE: I'm getting pretty good at nursing this thing alone, but I'd like to get to the root cause and fix it!
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-09-2017, 12:39 PM
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Unfortunately, not a lot of shops know the 6.0L well.

All owners should get a set of electronic gauges to read codes and live engine data (saves money in the long run and can prevent getting stranded)! Good choices: Edge CTS (but it is pricey), AutoEnginuity (pricey, but more than gauges - it is VERY good diagnositic tool), Scangauge II (clunk, but works OK, poor code reader), phone apps (ForScan, Torque, DashBoss). The phone apps need adapters (dongles) that plug into the OBDII computer port.

A common issue w/ the 6.0L is leaks in the high pressure oil system that show up when oil and engine is hot.

For the 2005 model year, th common issues for leaks in the HPO system are dummy plugs, standpipes,the discharge of the high pressure oil pump (HPOP) called the STC fitting (snap to connect). Also, sometimes injectors leak at the top o-ring.

I would suggest you get the codes read, and gear up to do an air test (100 psig air applied at the ICP port to leak check the HPO system). Lots of YouTube videos on it.

Stalls are very often due to electrical issues (harness chafing or wiring at key sensors), or the FICM, or the ICP, or the IPR. Could even be injector coils shorting. Read the codes!!!!

FICM repair and FICM components aren't all the same quality. The best option is a Ford FICM, sent to FICMrepair.com for upgrades (both the power and logic boards).

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270AXP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD BilletWaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs

Last edited by bismic; 05-09-2017 at 12:43 PM.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-10-2017, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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Symptoms . P2614 and P2617

Not sure how I missed including this in my initial post. I had to rewrite the post due to a time out, and missed putting it into the one you see above.

I have P2614, P2617, P1000, and a couple of Body codes. The B1352 and ignition key in failure has been there for years. The B1360 is also ignition and causes no detectable problem.

P1000 means it couldn't complete tests, and the other two seem to point to the FICM.

How that relates to 'cool running' and turns doesn't enlighten me!

Derick
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 11:46 AM
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P2614 might mean the cam shaft sensor, but it can also come from excessive attempts to start or a stall event.
Same for P2617 for the crank shaft sensor.

My bet is that you do not have a cam or crank sensor problem. The possibility of a shorting out injector coil (intermittently) is there, as well as a FICM or wiring harness possibility.

You might need an injector contribution test at the dealership or get the codes read somewhere else to see if your current code reader is missing something.

What are you using to read codes????

.... fyi, from Ford:

P2614 CMP - poor connection or electrical noise: Check CMP+/- or CKP+/- and CKPO or CMPO circuits. Can be generated by excessive cranks or after a stall event. Could also be caused with a shorted out injector coil.

P2617 CKP - poor connection or electrical noise: Check CMP+/- or CKP+/- and CKPO or CMPO circuits. Can be generated by excessive cranks or or after a stall event. Could also be caused with a shorted out injector coil.

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270AXP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD BilletWaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Code Reader

I am using Torque Pro, and a "ScanTool 427201 OBDLink LX Bluetooth: Professional OBD-II Scan Tool for Android & Windows"

I cleared the errors once, and they of course came back.

Vehicles are not my expertise, but I have felt that the code could be bogus, and your comment, while it should not influence me much, tends to confirm my hunch.

I harness problem is certainly reasonable at 200K and 12 years of service, but even that is hard to argue.

Hard left or right turns while cold don't cause a stall.
Hard left or right turns while hot.... ditto!

Left or right turns while in the "getting warm zone" do cause a stall, and that is fairly reliable.

And, coming back to a previous note, inclines also cause stalls and near stalls when the van is in the 'just right' zone. The length of this 'zone' is about 1 mile, and that's how long it takes to finish warming up the engine on an incline near my home.

(something to ignore perhaps, but it jostles the vehicle a great deal. I recently purchased some land, but don't have a driveway onto it. The van is all warmed up when I get there, but I have to take it up a short steep slope at about 10-12 mph to keep momentum. If there was a place where something could short out because of cabling that moved, this would be ideal to kill the engine. In about a dozen cases, both up and down, nothing has occurred.)
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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And now a story, because I like stories

While living and working in San Jose, I heard this story from a friend who enjoys a challenge. (names are made up, if I knew them I would have forgotten by now)

Mary takes the Volkswagen to the ice cream store in San Francisco. Usually John takes the same Volkswagen to the same store. When Mary tries to leave, she can't start the car. Because there is no one in front her, and at the urging of her husband during a phone call (from a box on the corner) she coasts the car into traffic and bump starts it in 2nd gear.

A couple of days later John takes the car to the store, has no problems and drives home.

His wife drives the car, and the &%(*# thing won't start, and this time there is a car parked in front of the Volkswagen. John takes their other car and drives to the store. He can't start the Volkswagen either! The car parked in front leaves, they bump start, and my friend gets involved.

He borrows the keys from John, drive the car up and down hills, and finally ends up at the store. He restarts the car several times and takes it home.

Then he asks Mary to drive. She does, and the car won't start.

The cause is a large brass (slave) ring on her key chain pulling down and opening the circuit.



What's that got to do with me and my problem.... Nothing!



It does remind me not to be too rigid in my thinking.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 05:12 PM
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Certain sensors can cause these types of stalls as well.

You can disconnect them to test for a difference:
ICP
EOT
ECT
EOP
MAP
Baro
EBP

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270AXP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD BilletWaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Sensors to disconnect

Hi Bismic,

Assuming I can locate the sensors you named, and that is by no means certain, are there any that should be disconnected only while running?

It wouldn't do me much good to disconnect something that 'has to be there' to get it started!

(I have a burn/abrasion from disconnecting the ICP, and while I'd like to have a better idea what is wrong before I return to the shop, I'll probably avoid pain if I'm able!)

And one other question for anyone in the Colorado Springs area: Who in my area would have the best ability to diagnose this problem if I can't isolate it?
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 10:25 PM
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The coffee table books can help in locating sensors

2003.25
http://www.powerstrokediesel.com/docs/EF_456.pdf

2004
http://www.ford-trucks.com/ford-manu...ble%20Book.pdf

2005
http://www.ford-trucks.com/ford-manu...ble%20Book.pdf

2005 running changes - update
http://www.ford-trucks.com/ford-manu...s%20Update.pdf

Mark
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerickGMoore View Post
Hi Bismic,

Assuming I can locate the sensors you named, and that is by no means certain, are there any that should be disconnected only while running?

It wouldn't do me much good to disconnect something that 'has to be there' to get it started!

(I have a burn/abrasion from disconnecting the ICP, and while I'd like to have a better idea what is wrong before I return to the shop, I'll probably avoid pain if I'm able!)

And one other question for anyone in the Colorado Springs area: Who in my area would have the best ability to diagnose this problem if I can't isolate it?
I wouldn't be recommending you to try disconnected sensors if you couldn't start the van without them.

The EBP might be needed for getting up full speed and boost - just depends on the PCM strategy you have.

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270AXP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD BilletWaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs
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