12.7 Detroit needs help [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: 12.7 Detroit needs help


Zeppe
02-05-2011, 10:15 PM
I've been viewing the threads dealing with the Series 60 Detroit Diesel and have to say thanks for the information; what I have read so far has been very informing.
I'm new here and this is my first posting.

I have a 2001 DDEC IV, pre EGR that's been slowly deteriorating over the past few months. I'm now starting to show fuel in the oil, not much (yet), but enough to know that I have a big problem developing. It smokes alot, (but then again, it's a Detroit), blowby is getting excessive in my opinion. I know the primary solution for this is rings and I'm wondering if this is where the fuel could or is most likely getting to the oil pan? The other thing which actually started me looking for solutions is I can't keep an exhaust manifold on this thing, they keep cracking. Is there a relation between the two? has one fed the other? I've been going through oil like mad, and I'm going broke.
Any help will be greatly appreciated. :help

fest777
02-05-2011, 11:28 PM
I've been viewing the threads dealing with the Series 60 Detroit Diesel and have to say thanks for the information; what I have read so far has been very informing.
I'm new here and this is my first posting.

I have a 2001 DDEC IV, pre EGR that's been slowly deteriorating over the past few months. I'm now starting to show fuel in the oil, not much (yet), but enough to know that I have a big problem developing. It smokes alot, (but then again, it's a Detroit), blowby is getting excessive in my opinion. I know the primary solution for this is rings and I'm wondering if this is where the fuel could or is most likely getting to the oil pan? The other thing which actually started me looking for solutions is I can't keep an exhaust manifold on this thing, they keep cracking. Is there a relation between the two? has one fed the other? I've been going through oil like mad, and I'm going broke.
Any help will be greatly appreciated. :help

are you running a pyrometer sounds like its over fueling big time iam not much on detroits you could have a bad injector seat or oring leaking, how is the oil pressure ? oil in fuel can do a number on your bearings, is the power o.k. ? sounds like you have injector problems via you say it smokes , its tuff being a owner opp these days, i have a 3406c peec cat that i want too convert back to mechanical but ia'm affraid if i get caught here in calif. they might offer me a firing squad:mafia1:and also welcome to the diesel garage there are alot of great people here that can help you , gust keep trying and asking reasonable questions and help some else if you can

theakerstwo
02-06-2011, 12:31 AM
The DD should not be smoking. Who know how the over head is but the air/air needs checked for leaks from turbo to the head.Another thing is i would pull the exhaust pipe off of the turbo and with a good light look at the exhaust wheel for missing tips on the fins. Also that turbo could have wastgate but do not remenber. If it does make sure the linkage is not broken on the wastgate.The camshaft is easy to get out of time if some one has had the cam gear off of the cam.If the manifold is cracking there is a timing problem or a boost leak. I am thinking as if it has the proper program in the ecm and proper injectors.Boost leaks can be found on the cooler as well as the piping and the intake hose to the air compressor.If the manifold has cracked from heat then the turbo may be gone .All of this can cause the engine to burn oil. A bad turbo bushing can cause some blow/by.

OTT
02-06-2011, 12:56 AM
oil leak on a dd I allways check flywheel housing first. You can have a bad inj how many miles on this truck?

Zeppe
02-06-2011, 01:54 AM
are you running a pyrometer sounds like its over fueling big time iam not much on detroits you could have a bad injector seat or oring leaking, how is the oil pressure ? oil in fuel can do a number on your bearings, is the power o.k. ? sounds like you have injector problems via you say it smokes , its tuff being a owner opp these days, i have a 3406c peec cat that i want too convert back to mechanical but ia'm affraid if i get caught here in calif. they might offer me a firing squad:mafia1:and also welcome to the diesel garage there are alot of great people here that can help you , gust keep trying and asking reasonable questions and help some else if you can

The pyro probe went out on me, but I can tell you that it never ran hot unless I was out west.
I've had others tell me that I have a bad injector, and very well may. Just been trying to keep it going to pay for parts.
Oil pressure is down now. Sits about 43-44 when cold, but as it heats up it drops. I wasn't extremely concerned when it held around 38, but now it's down to 30 when all warmed up and running and won't go up. I'll be changing the oil again before I go anywhere with it, I'm at 8000 mi.
Power was holding great. It would out pull anything around it at gross. Threw me a code last week, 2-5, which is 'no codes' according to the manual. Even dealer is stumped by that one.

Zeppe
02-06-2011, 02:02 AM
The DD should not be smoking. Who know how the over head is but the air/air needs checked for leaks from turbo to the head.Another thing is i would pull the exhaust pipe off of the turbo and with a good light look at the exhaust wheel for missing tips on the fins. Also that turbo could have wastgate but do not remenber. If it does make sure the linkage is not broken on the wastgate.The camshaft is easy to get out of time if some one has had the cam gear off of the cam.If the manifold is cracking there is a timing problem or a boost leak. I am thinking as if it has the proper program in the ecm and proper injectors.Boost leaks can be found on the cooler as well as the piping and the intake hose to the air compressor.If the manifold has cracked from heat then the turbo may be gone .All of this can cause the engine to burn oil. A bad turbo bushing can cause some blow/by.

The over head was ran about 20k ago. I've checked the air/air and all seems good. Turbo is new and not 'blowing' oil. New air filters took care of that. Does have WG, not broke. And as far as I know, no one has messed with the cam. If they have, they did a great job putting it all back with old gaskets and such.
I'm not sure how, [I](keep scratching my brain)[I], but somehow oil is getting into the cylinder and out the exhaust, but it's not going through the intake. The oil thru the exhaust is obvious, just can't seem to grasp how it's getting there.

Zeppe
02-06-2011, 02:11 AM
@OTT;
Flywheel housing is good, no leaks. I do have a leak in front of the pan, think it may be the crank seal on the front cover due to the 'spray' pattern of oil down the bottom of the pan but can't say for sure. I dropped the pan last oil change, scrubbed it clean and put in new gasket. I now can say the isolators need to be replaced, but there's not enough seepage for what I'm dealing with. That's an easy fix; should be able to get to that this time home.
No one is really sure how many miles are on this. It's a transplant out of an 01 Century. Detroit doesn't have any records of it after it was overhauled in 04 at 700k. I have been able to find the truck it came out of; it was rolled. My dealer bought it for parts and swapped it before I bought the truck, so I can only account for the past two years. The odometer shows 1.24mil.

Johnp3
02-06-2011, 02:30 AM
The oil in the fuel is checked buy adding oil dye to a pail of fuel Cummins Part #3376891, you do not need to add the full bottle, run it to circulate it threw the head. Block off the return and pressurize the primary filter, with the valve cover off you should see it with a flash light, a black light is better.
If you take it to a bigger Detroit dealer they can test you injectors, you may have one that if over flowing and breaking the manifold. While the injectors are out you can have cylinder leak down test done on each cylinder TDC and DTC. Then you will know, having the CAC and the intake pressurized will tell you if valve guides are the problem with blow by. The turbo can be tested on the compressor side they also will pass boosted air to the crank case. Just a thought!

Zeppe
02-06-2011, 03:02 PM
@ Johnp3;
Thanks for the info. Should oil start showing up in the fuel, I'll do that. Right now, it's only traces of fuel in the oil pan. Where it's getting by to get there is my mystery.
I've called my Detroit shop which is right down the street and there covered up until at least Wed. I'm trying to avoid their cost going through it myself, but I will need them at some point; electronics aren't my thing, but a pressure test would be helpful.

379Longhood
02-06-2011, 03:48 PM
I think JP3 got the phrase backwards , his test is for Fuel in oil:popcorn

theakerstwo
02-06-2011, 04:28 PM
and if the oil level is dropping enough for you to add oil how do you kno your getting fuel in the oil. Low oil pressure can bcaused by outher things. Fuel in the oil the oil level should rise.

Zeppe
02-07-2011, 02:32 PM
So far, I've pulled the lid, removed the jakes and rocker arms, checked everything to make sure it's tight and not broken. Everything appears to be okay; no broken springs, loose valves, or anything like that. Put it all back together and left the lid off. Tried to turn it by hand to see if it's all working and couldn't see so I started it up and watched for a minute. All is working.
After I shut if off, I noticed the smoke rising through the head. Seemed more concentrated between #2 and 3. I'm thinking about taking it all back off and pulling the injectors out (one at a time) and giving them a visual check. Is there any discoloration or trailing that should be present if they are fouled?
Then I'm on to remove the pan again and re-check everything on the bottom.

@theakerstwo: I noticed the fuel in the oil when pulling the dipstick. It's not much, but it's there.

Keep the thoughts coming, and thanks guys, this really helps and I'll keep ya'll posted.

KET19
02-07-2011, 04:54 PM
My experiance with many Detroits is a bad injector cup in the head itself.
To test for fuel in the oil, we took a sheet of white paper, took the dipstick and placed a drop on the paper, then you could see the fuel draw out of the drop and spread out on the paper. You can always compare it to a clean drop of oil. I would yank the head and send it to Detroit.

theakerstwo
02-07-2011, 07:02 PM
My experiance with many Detroits is a bad injector cup in the head itself.
To test for fuel in the oil, we took a sheet of white paper, took the dipstick and placed a drop on the paper, then you could see the fuel draw out of the drop and spread out on the paper. You can always compare it to a clean drop of oil. I would yank the head and send it to Detroit. There is fix for rough surface ibnjector cup. It is a tick fiber gasket that goes under the injector sold by DD.

Zeppe
02-08-2011, 01:08 AM
My experiance with many Detroits is a bad injector cup in the head itself.
To test for fuel in the oil, we took a sheet of white paper, took the dipstick and placed a drop on the paper, then you could see the fuel draw out of the drop and spread out on the paper. You can always compare it to a clean drop of oil. I would yank the head and send it to Detroit.

Thanks for the oil test advice, I'll do this in the morning. I contacted my local Detroit shop and have an apt with them tomorrow for some testing


There is fix for rough surface ibnjector cup. It is a tick fiber gasket that goes under the injector sold by DD.

I'll keep this in mind while I'm at the dealer should we find there is a problem here.

I've got it all buttoned up for the night, will let you know what I find from the test tomorrow. To all, thanks for the help.

The Ayatollah
02-08-2011, 01:51 AM
Injector cup is a really good possibility

Johnp3
02-08-2011, 02:28 AM
Please explain to me how a copper cup used in a 12.7, that is surrounded buy coolant, and has two fuel passages separated buy "O" rings is going to put fuel in the oil?
Injectors leak, and "O" rings leak fuel into the oil, injector cups leak fuel into the coolant.

theakerstwo
02-08-2011, 02:39 AM
Please explain to me how a copper cup used in a 12.7, that is surrounded buy coolant, and has two fuel passages separated buy "O" rings is going to put fuel in the oil?
Injectors leak, and "O" rings leak fuel into the oil, injector cups leak fuel into the coolant. I think our minds have changed over to oil in the fuel. You cant get fuel in the oil from the injector cups.

Zeppe
02-09-2011, 05:26 AM
Well the results are in. :woot: A cut out test today revealed that injector #1 is 'gone'. Smoking all but went away when cut out. #4 also indicated some improvement during the test, so, I'm looking for some fairly inexpensive injectors to get me through a rough $$ patch. Anyone have any suggestions?
I've got a line on a shop that rebuilds them, waiting on a quote.

Zeppe
03-12-2011, 04:58 AM
All is back up and running :happydance. I've pulled 8 loads in the past two weeks. Doesn't seem to have quite the spunk it had before, not real bad difference, but noticeable when pulling a hill. Have a slight increase in mpg, time will tell just how much better. Still burning oil, not smoking quite as bad as before. Still going to have to break it down and do the rings I believe. Neighbor has a friend with a truck shop he said he'll let me use. Might be a few weeks before I can get to it, but I'll be home again next weekend and plan on meeting him to be sure we can do it there.

PGM
03-20-2011, 03:41 PM
Ive had more S60's than you could poke a stick at, and my rule of thumb with them is oil consumption. When they start eating oil, time for a kit, if they dont use lots of oil, keep running them.

Ive had Series 60's run 1,100,000 miles running at 100,000lbs thier whole life.

However, Injectors and turbos will only last you 500,000 miles at best.

DDEC2 was a tremendous engine,
DDECIII was an absolute shocker and
DDECIV was another great thing.

Detroits for some reason last forever at lower horsepower ratings, but with higher torque.

I always set my 12.7's at 430hp, but 1650ftlb, and they get great economy, last forever, and pull like a train.

When set at 500hp and 1650ftlb, there is almost no noticable difference in pulling power of feel except for higher fuel consumption and longevity of the engine suffers.

...Oh and the 12.7 was a MUCH better engine than the 14lt. The 12.7 revs quickly, and is always eager to please, where ive found the 14lt engine to be a lazy slug.