Rear axle seals [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: Rear axle seals


Duke
09-13-2005, 12:33 PM
I've had my rear axle seals done twice now this year. The first time was done by someone that I didn't use before and they just sprayed axle oil all over the insides of the wheels. I took it back to another shop, had them redone and they still leak, but not nearly as bad, just a few dots of oil on the wheels.

Is it normal for them to leak a bit when you first get the truck back from the shop? Do they take a few miles to get set-up?

I guess I can live with a few spots here & there, but when DOT pulls me over, they'll probably not like it.

Should I be taking it back a 3rd time to do these seals again? :pissed:

Birken Vogt
09-13-2005, 01:19 PM
Because you said the inside of the wheels I think you mean the axle shaft gaskets/orings and not the wheel seals themselves. That would put oil into the brake drums, not on the wheels. Anyway no they are not supposed to leak at all. These two parts (axle/hub) have no relative motion to each other so it should not be that hard to make them tight. Just take it back and make them do their work right

Birken

Duke
09-13-2005, 05:05 PM
Birk,

It's just spatterings of small oil droplets on the outside of the outer-dual wheel rim on the truck. IOW, it makes the outer white steel rim look like it has oil spattered on it. Nothing on the inside, near the brakes.

partsguy662
09-13-2005, 05:32 PM
What brand of seals are they using Duke?

2003EDGE
09-13-2005, 07:08 PM
Take a look at the nuts and studs holding the axle shaft into the hub. Make sure that they all look even. Meaning, one of them doesn't have a ton of thread sticking out and the others don't. I fixed a truck that had the studs backing out of the hub causing the a severe leak. If the metal gasket that you get from IH doesn't fix the leak and the studs look good, clean the surfaces and use Permatex 518 and go around all the bolt holes and flange on the shaft. That should take care of the problem.

Duke
09-13-2005, 08:50 PM
What brand of seals are they using Duke?

I don't know what brand they used :shrug:

2003Edge,

I do notice that one or 2 of the studs has more thread sticking out than the rest. Plenty of new Permatex excess oozed out from the edges of the flange.....

If I take the nuts & lock washers off, and remove the cap, will the new gasket get trashed in the process? Will I lose a lot of oil ? I really don't want to do this :pissed: but the company that did it for me is just too far away to drive back to to get it resolved. :pissed:

refuse2
09-13-2005, 11:19 PM
Just a simple check I had it happen to me twice on the same truck and at different times is to check the vent on top of the axle to make sure it isn't plugged, that will cause all kinds of problems but only when you build up enough pressure. I was changing mine about twice a year when I did my brakes but have since changed over to hub pilot from spokes and I love it. I hope this helps.

2003EDGE
09-14-2005, 05:44 AM
Yeah, a plugged vent will mess you up too. But those tend to blow out inner hub seals and pinion seals.

As for not losing fluid, jack up that side of the axle and let it sit for a few minutes and they oil should run down into the other hub and housing. Sometimes we don't even use gaskets and just use the 518 stuff.

We normally only use one or the other. If they used both, that could cause some issues as well.

Birken Vogt
09-14-2005, 01:59 PM
Yeah the first step with any axle leakage problem is to verify that the vent is open, as stated if you park the truck with that wheel higher than the other that should prevent much oil from falling out. I agree this is a case where somebody may have slopped silicone all over it not knowing what he was doing. It depends on the style of gasket/seal whether I will use silicone or not.

Birken

Duke
09-14-2005, 02:04 PM
The sealant they used is grey in color.

2003EDGE
09-14-2005, 05:17 PM
There is your problem. Pull the axle, clean it up really good, put the 518 on it or get a new gasket for it. That grey goop is useless. I have had to pull rear axle carriers to clean that stuff up and put a real gasket in it.

Duke
09-14-2005, 07:21 PM
So the grey sealant is a substandard sealant when used on axle sealing applications?

2003EDGE
09-15-2005, 08:40 AM
It just doesn't hold up. I don't know if it is a problem with the product or the person putting the product on. I know I have NEVER had any problems with the 518.

Duke
09-15-2005, 12:50 PM
Edge2003,
Thanks very much!!! :thanks:

I retorqued all the nuts. A few were a tad lose, but nothing to write home about.

Next time I run it hard I'll know for sure if it's the sealant.

If I decide to redo the hubs, can I simply park the truck on a slant and do the high side axle first? When you do a job like this, do you remove the nuts and try to clean around the studs, or do you like to remove the studs too, so it's easier to clean the mating surface?

2003EDGE
09-15-2005, 03:43 PM
The studs should stay in the hub. They put some pretty serious loctite on them at the factory. Yes, you can park the truck on a slant and do it that way as well.

If you have a bunch of the studs that come out with the nuts, try to separate them and put a healthy dose of loctite on them if they are not all rolled over.

Just post up if you have any problems.

superdave
03-08-2006, 10:49 PM
I just clean the axle and houseing off and use napa prematex usely the black

John_G
03-10-2006, 06:37 PM
Duke,

There are TWO "seals" on each wheel end, one "wheel seal" thatseals the INNER bearing area agains the axle housing, and the "flange seal/gasket" where the axle shaft is sealed to the hub.

In my 20+ years of this, I will ONLY use a GASKET on the axle flange where it meets the hub. Reason, NO liquid sealant will work properly (or long) if you do not get 100% of the oil off of both parts. Silicone type sealants are a "band-aid" and a copout on a proper repair. The factory NEVER uses this stuff on flanges simply because it is unreliable as a sealer.

So no, even the best (gray) International/LocTite sealants are NOT "good enough".

Chris88
03-11-2006, 12:43 AM
When we pull axles all we do is clean the mating surface and then put permatex not sure which one but its red on aound all the holes and they never leak. Its not a big job at all and should only take you 5-10 minutes a side as long as no studs come out. When the studs come out if you dont have a stud driver you have to double nut them to get them tight and that is time consuming.

Chris

Chris88
03-11-2006, 12:47 AM
I just read the reply above mine and I fully disagree with you. The axles should be perfectly clean anyway either with a gasket or a sealer. All it takes is a bit of brakeclean and your done. I have never seen an axle leak that has been done right with sealant. The reason why no manufacturer would use sealant is because it involves less labor and time. To put the sealer on the flange takes a couple minutes to get right where as with the gasket you put it on and its done. Its a lot easier to carry around a couple tubes of permatex than it is to carry around gaskets when your working on a lot of differnt trucks.

Chris

John_G
03-11-2006, 09:15 PM
Well Chris, having been doing this professionally for 20+ years, I have seen VERY FEW "siliconed" flanges that do not leak. Sure, IF you get all the oil off the mating surfaces it *should* seal just fine, but that is rarely the case especially with a hub full of fresh 75W-90 trying to leak out past the outer bearing during the time you are installing the wheel end and getting everything torqued properly.

BTW, Brakeclean is not 100% effective at removing oil from cast iron or steel with mircopores (like nealry 100% of the hubs and axles out there have).

Lowboy
03-12-2006, 06:13 PM
Sealant is all we're using anymore on axle flanges. And it's OEM approved and used in many up to date OEM shops and assembly line units.

Quote from Permatex: "This elastomeric rubber technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets. It also protects against leaks caused by vibration and thermal expansion."

http://www.permatex.com/brand_right_stuff.htm

John_G
03-13-2006, 12:53 AM
Lowboy,

No disrespect, but I know of zero OEMs that use "sealant" for flange gaskets, or to seal "wheel seals" in their bores at the factory. I am not saying none do, but I have yet to see one (even the '06).

Duke's truck is an International (then Navistar), and I can tell you for certain, that International does NOT approve this.

Lowboy
03-13-2006, 02:15 AM
John,

I recently decided to re-torque the rear axle bearing nuts on my 98 Peterbilt that I've owned since new. The rear axle flanges had no paper gaskets, just sticky rubber sealant with Eaton OEM axles..

Toyota is using a robot that applies a liquid gasket onto mating flanges of up to 10 different types of parts, ranging from engine blocks to transmission parts including flywheel housings, axle housings, retainers, breather pipes, and cooling water manifolds.

If Permatex sez that elastomeric rubber technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets I'll have to go with Permatex over International. I realize this might cut down on parts sales, but they can make it up somewhere else while at the same time keep the customer rolling.

Also, Permatex sealant is FAA approved for many aircraft gasket applications. That kind of sez it all right there.. :shrug: :popcorn:

Here's some Anaerobic sealant especially designed for axle flange flexing that pre cut gaskets won't seal...

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/anaerobic_gasket_makers/Permatex_Anaerobic_Flange_Sealant_a.htm

--Paul

superdave
03-13-2006, 01:56 PM
John,

I recently decided to re-torque the rear axle bearing nuts on my 98 Peterbilt that I've owned since new. The rear axle flanges had no paper gaskets, just sticky rubber sealant with Eaton OEM axles..

Toyota is using a robot that applies a liquid gasket onto mating flanges of up to 10 different types of parts, ranging from engine blocks to transmission parts including flywheel housings, axle housings, retainers, breather pipes, and cooling water manifolds.

If Permatex sez that elastomeric rubber technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets I'll have to go with Permatex over International. I realize this might cut down on parts sales, but they can make it up somewhere else while at the same time keep the customer rolling.

Also, Permatex sealant is FAA approved for many aircraft gasket applications. That kind of sez it all right there.. :shrug: :popcorn:

Here's some Anaerobic sealant especially designed for axle flange flexing that pre cut gaskets won't seal...

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/anaerobic_gasket_makers/Permatex_Anaerobic_Flange_Sealant_a.htm

--Paulits worked for years

fjh
03-14-2006, 12:32 AM
The Anaerobic sealant is quite pricey but so is waiting for a gasket!
Think I'll keep on using it!The parts guys have a hard enough time finding the right parts anyway, Least I know i'll have the right part in my tool box! :D
And they can keep the wrong axle gasket on the shelf! :D

Lmackattack
03-14-2006, 01:15 AM
On most mack dump trucks the axel gaskets dont hold up long because of the abuse. we just use the sealant and maybe once a year do they start to leak again. every time we put a gasket on we needed a new one in 3 months.

im shure most OEM truck mfg say to use a gasket. but we feel that it is more of a maintence hastle.

Lowboy
03-14-2006, 02:29 AM
Of course, and I know you guys know, but proper bearing adjustment takes the flex out of the flange axles in the first place which usually causes the leaking..:D

Benesesso
03-16-2006, 06:44 PM
A few years ago I had a big IH 1586 tractor (Turbo 436)--I stupidly sold it. But for a while the hydraulic "hitch" pump gave me fits. Pump wouldn't deliver much pressure, so I pulled the heavy cast iron pump cover off the body and took a good look. Lots of "O" rings around flow holes on the cover/body faces, plus a heavy gasket.

Thought I'd do the job right and used Viton O rings instead of nitrile. New gasket too, of course. Worked fine for a short while, then no pressure. Pulled the cover again and was surprised to find some of my new O rings sheared in half (like you'd slice an English muffin). WTF?? Then I measured the thickness of the compressed gasket and looked up what kind of gap O rings could seal at 2,000+ psi. Only a few mils, far less than what the gasket was. What a dumb design. I put it back together with Loctite "Plastic Gasket" instead of the IH gasket and new O rings, and the problem was over.

I've often wondered how many poor farmers went broke because their broken tractor's pump was the last straw.

I'd have a LOT of welfare recips. out working the fields, but they say such treatment might "hamper their spirits" or something like that.