Blowing coolant/overheating-need help [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: Blowing coolant/overheating-need help


Texcursion
12-18-2007, 06:49 PM
Here is my latest 6.0 story. 2005 F350 6.0 Auto 4x4. Went to dealer at 17k for blowing excessive coolant while towing my RV. Got new Ford gaskets and head studs. Didn't tow much more until ~33k miles. By not towing much I mean over ~6k pounds. Started towing again and it started blowing coolant again. If I tow more than 10k lbs it will blow coolant and overheat. In total it has been in and out of dealer ~5 times for this issue and has received new:

Head gaskets
Thermostat
Cooling fan
Radiator
2 EGR coolers
2 EGR valves
oil cooler
coolant bottle and cap

It is still blowing coolant and overheating even though the coolant level is way below the add mark. Dealer doesn't know what else to do and they say Ford Tech support doesn't either. They are requesting a Ford rep come in person and check it out.:popcorn:

Do you guys have any other ideas to look at?:shrug:

I know you guys see a lot and may have some recommendations. I traded a lemon 04 6.0 Excursion at 20k miles for an even longer laundry list of issues. I took a big hit on the trade in just trying to get rid of it and I'm not going to take a loss twice for the 6.0 crap so I need some help to diagnose or give it back. :mafia

Sorry, my questions turned into a rant but I have about lost it on this reoccurring nightmare.:givemebeer

Also in it's life, the truck has had a new turbo, 2 or 3 new shift solenoids, an AC controller face, 2 new batteries, fuel pump and 4 injectors. It still won't start below freezing without plugging in the block heater. All in 45k miles.

I am at a loss.

Thoughts?

stacks
12-18-2007, 06:59 PM
I've had the same problem, 4 egr cooler, and now I have arp studs. I'd say it could be another egr cooler or oil cooler. Is it smoking alot when you start it first thing when it's cold?

teamroper60
12-18-2007, 07:27 PM
All of the usual suspects have been addressed it seems, so to me it sounds like either your heads are warped or the block is not true. I suspect the tech that did the work did not check this when he made the repairs....

Texcursion
12-18-2007, 07:42 PM
No smoke when it starts but it knock and pings when it's cold like it's missing on one cylinder. When running temp, it starts great.

Tech checked the heads but not the block. He said they have a tool for checking the heads but not the block so it wasn't done.

LokiWolf
12-19-2007, 02:39 AM
No smoke when it starts but it knock and pings when it's cold like it's missing on one cylinder. When running temp, it starts great.

Tech checked the heads but not the block. He said they have a tool for checking the heads but not the block so it wasn't done.

He didn't have a tool??? Its called a straight edge...LOL

It sounds like you have multiple issues. I would assume a lazy injector would be the cause of the cold start issues, but it could also be due to another compromised Head Gasket...:shrug:

stacks
12-19-2007, 03:02 AM
pinging sounds like an injector issue. You got a new coolant bottle cap but, did they change out the bottle itself? If it has new egr and oil coolers it sounds like teamroper60 said either the heads or block.

jdydiesel
12-19-2007, 03:19 AM
Sounds like you have gone to the same dealer as I have, one that has no idea what they are doing just throwing parts at it. I would try another dealer if you can.

Hardline
12-19-2007, 03:32 AM
Sounds like you have gone to the same dealer as I have, one that has no idea what they are doing just throwing parts at it. I would try another dealer if you can.
I totally agree!!! I am so fortunate to have a great dealer here local to me that does alot of diesel truck repairs. JJ
EDIT I see you are in N Texas. What area? If you are close I can get you the name of an awesome dealer in Ft Worth.

760 PSD
12-19-2007, 05:54 PM
Here is my latest 6.0 story. 2005 F350 6.0 Auto 4x4. Went to dealer at 17k for blowing excessive coolant while towing my RV. Got new Ford gaskets and head studs. Didn't tow much more until ~33k miles. By not towing much I mean over ~6k pounds. Started towing again and it started blowing coolant again. If I tow more than 10k lbs it will blow coolant and overheat. In total it has been in and out of dealer ~5 times for this issue and has received new:

Head gaskets
Thermostat
Cooling fan
Radiator
2 EGR coolers
2 EGR valves
oil cooler
coolant bottle and cap

It is still blowing coolant and overheating even though the coolant level is way below the add mark. Dealer doesn't know what else to do and they say Ford Tech support doesn't either. They are requesting a Ford rep come in person and check it out.:popcorn:

Do you guys have any other ideas to look at?:shrug:

I know you guys see a lot and may have some recommendations. I traded a lemon 04 6.0 Excursion at 20k miles for an even longer laundry list of issues. I took a big hit on the trade in just trying to get rid of it and I'm not going to take a loss twice for the 6.0 crap so I need some help to diagnose or give it back. :mafia

Sorry, my questions turned into a rant but I have about lost it on this reoccurring nightmare.:givemebeer

Also in it's life, the truck has had a new turbo, 2 or 3 new shift solenoids, an AC controller face, 2 new batteries, fuel pump and 4 injectors. It still won't start below freezing without plugging in the block heater. All in 45k miles.

I am at a loss.

Thoughts?

I have the exact same problem on my 05 I have had everthing replaced same as what you have listed. But I have arp studs, egr delete and she still pukes and over heats. I am just going to beat the hell out of the truck and pull 30000 gcvw as usally and blow the motor and start fresh. Am I pissed yes But I love fords trucks And no matter how bad It comes too I will never be caught dead in a chevy or a dodge.I am going to build the new motor better.
I am going to do the elite coolant lines to the back of the heads, Stand alone oil cooler, Completley remove the Egr cooler, H-11 studs with Fire ring heads,Bigger radaitor.

stacks
12-20-2007, 02:30 AM
if it still pukes with the egr blocked off I'm guessing that would be the oil cooler? What else is there to make it puke?

harry6.0
12-20-2007, 03:55 AM
Gosh ya know, I really feel bad for you guys having this issue, and it could happen to me. My experience in the automotive field has taught me that sometimes you have to thoroughly inspect the basics, so not to miss or overlook a problem and end up chasing a ghost. My suggestion would be to have the cylinder heads pressure tested in a machine shop for cracks before reinstallation. Unseen to the naked eye hairline cracks will expand/contract with heat and can cause combustion gasses to enter the cooling system. Also warped or pitted decks on the engine block or cylinder heads will cause an issue. As long as the rest of the cooling system is good, water pump flow, no restrictions in radiator, thermostat operation, fan clutch operation, the problem is most likely in the cylinder heads from the sound of it. I am no 6.0 expert engine builder, these are just my thoughts. As someone suggested here, sometimes though its just better to start fresh with new heads or motor.

Texcursion
12-20-2007, 04:24 PM
I've had lots of feedback from folks that say block/heads so I think I am going to request we go with a crate engine.

Thanks all.

frequentflyer
12-20-2007, 04:29 PM
Did you buy it new ? If you did, can't you lemon law the thing after 5 times ?

stacks
12-20-2007, 10:34 PM
I thought lemon law was only for a safty issue.

ralphinnj
12-21-2007, 01:43 AM
I think he has a coolant flow problem. Some of it is inherent in the poor Ford design that I have ranted about elsewhere, and some could be his coolant pump and associated lines, etc. It seems to happen when he really loads it up (over 10K). Naturally, it gets hot under those conditions, but in his case, it gets hotter than it should. The oil cooler and EGR cooler are already marginal at best, so all it would take is some congestion in your cooling system and you'll puke every time.

I would look at the water pump, all lines and do a flush. Add a coolant filter while you are at it, they are reasonable (under $200). You've probably seen th threads on here about the sludge some people are mining with these filters.....imagine what that does to your flow rate and hence heat transfer. Let's face it, the cooling system design is not that great and it probably is the root cause in this case......just my opinion guys.


Ralph

stacks
12-22-2007, 01:25 AM
Mine is puking at low rpms like if I go to give it gas and it goes up a gear and drops the rpms down, I can hear that cap on the degas bottle just blowing out, I'm adding coolant almost everyday. It doesn't only do it when the temps are high or the boost is high. Cooler is going sunday, and I might attempt the oil cooler as well.

imported_cb44473
12-22-2007, 02:12 AM
COOLANT DEGAS BOTTLE OVERFLOW—6.0L TSB 07-21-5
FORD: 2003-2007 F-Super Duty
2004-2007 E-Series
2003-2005 Excursion
This article supersedes TSB 07-14-5 to update the
Part List.
ISSUE
Some 2003-2007 F-Super Duty, 2003-2005
Excursion and 2004-2007 E-Series vehicles, all
equipped with a 6.0L engine, may exhibit coolant
venting from the degas bottle cap. The condition
typically occurs when operating the vehicle under a
load such as trailer towing, uphill driving, or both.
ACTION
Prior to making any repairs, verify the coolant level
is not overfull. The new coolant fill level is at the
“MIN” line of the degas bottle cold. Overfilled Figure 1 - Article 07-21-5
coolant levels will cause coolant to vent from the
degas bottle cap. If the degas bottle is not overfull, b. Clean cooling system with VC-1 Motorcraftâ
and is still venting out coolant, refer to the following Premium Cooling System Flush. Refer to
Service Procedure. WSM Section 303-03.
SERVICE PROCEDURE NOTE
IT MAY BE NECESSARY TO FURTHER REMOVE
Complete All Steps In Order As Outlined ALL COOLANT HOSES (RADIATOR, DEGAS, AND
1. Check for cross contamination of engine oil into HEATER) AND CLEAN THEM SEPARATELY. OIL
cooling system by inspecting the coolant TENDS TO ADHERE TO THE RUBBER AND
condition in the degas bottle. If oil is present in RESISTS NORMAL FLUSHING.
coolant, perform the following repair: NOTE
a. Replace the oil cooler, refer to Workshop IN EXTREME CASES, THE RADIATOR MAY
Manual (WSM), Section 303-01C. NEED TO BE REMOVED AND CLEANED IN AN
ULTRASONIC CLEANING TANK AT A LOCAL
NOTE RADIATOR REPAIR FACILITY.
ON 2004 E-SERIES 6.0L BUILT BEFORE
05/29/2004: IF THE OIL COOLER IS REPLACED, 2. Check for diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs).
ALSO REPLACE THE HEATER CORE INLET Then using IDS datalogger, access the
HOSE; THE REVISED HOSE CONTAINS AN following PIDs and road test the vehicle:
INTERNAL FLOW RESTRICTOR (FIGURE 1). • Manifold Gauge Pressure (MGP)
REFER TO TSB 05-2-5 FOR ADDITIONAL • Barometric Pressure (BARO)
INFORMATION. • Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR)
• Exhaust Pressure (EP)
• Mass Air Flow (MAF)
• Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
• Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
• Engine Oil Temperature (EOT)
NOTE: The information in Technical Service Bulletins is intended for use by trained, professional technicians with the knowledge, tools, and equipment to do
the job properly and safely. It informs these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or provides information that could assist in proper
vehicle service. The procedures should not be performed by “do-it-yourselfers”. Do not assume that a condition described affects your car or truck. Contact a
Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury dealership to determine whether the Bulletin applies to your vehicle. Warranty Policy and Extended Service Plan documentation
determine Warranty and/or Extended Service Plan coverage unless stated otherwise in the TSB article.The information in this Technical Service Bulletin
(TSB) was current at the time of printing. Ford Motor Company reserves the right to supercede this information with updates.The most recent information is
available through Ford Motor Company’s on-line technical resources.
Copyright ă 2007 Ford Motor Company Online Publication Date October 10, 2007 PAGE 1
TSB 07-21-5 (Continued)
a. Verify that MGP, BARO, EGR, EP, MAF
and MAP PIDs are within specification, and
the EP PID value is within 1.5 psi (10.34
kPa) of the MAP and BARO PID values with
key on engine off (KOEO). If PIDs are not
within specification, or DTCs are retrieved,
refer to PC/ED pinpoint tests. Repair any
faults then proceed with the TSB.
NOTE
OVER-BOOST CONDITIONS (HIGHER THAN
SPECIFIED MGP) WILL RESULT IN EXCESSIVE
CYLINDER PRESSURES, AND MAY BE CAUSED
BY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING: IRREGULAR
RESPONSE IN VARIABLE GEOMETRY TURBO, Figure 2 - Article 07-21-5
BIASED EXHAUST PRESSURE SENSOR, AND/OR
IRREGULAR EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION. a. Wait 30 seconds, if the gauge holds steady
pressure, the pressure cap and degas bottle
b. Verify that ECT and EOT PIDs are within fill neck lip are good.
specified ranges (see PC/ED Section 1:
Description and Operation of ECT, EOT). b. If the gauge pressure drops, apply soapy
EOT should be about 225° F (107° C) when water around the cap to find any leaks.
the ECT is 200° F (93° C). If EOT IS NOT Check the degas bottle fill neck lip for nicks
within 25° F (14° C) of ECT during the or cracks. Small nicks can be removed by
concern, replace the oil cooler. However, light sanding with fine emery cloth.
first perform all steps through Step 5 before Re-pressure test, if leaks are still present
replacing the oil cooler. Refer to Workshop replace the pressure cap. Re-pressure test
Manual, Section 303-01C. again, if leaks are still present replace the
degas bottle, Refer to WSM, Section
3. Check for proper operation of the pressure cap 303-03.
and its seal to the degas bottle. Do not remove
the pressure cap. As shown in (Figure 2), c. After verifying that the degas bottle and
install the pressure tester to one (1) of the two pressure cap are in good condition, proceed
(2) small ports near the top of the bottle. Then to Step 4.
isolate the degas bottle by securely pinching off
(or plugging) the other intake deaeration (small) NOTE
line, and the large hose at the bottom of the A DEFECTIVE EGR COOLER CAN CAUSE
bottle between the bottle and the tee fitting. COOLANT TO VENT OUT OF THE DEGAS
Pressurize the degas bottle by using slow and BOTTLE AND APPEAR SIMILAR TO
steady pushes on the tester pump handle (not HEADGASKET FAILURE.
quick jerking pushes). Pressurize the degas 4. EGR COOLER TEST: Install a pressure tester
bottle until the gauge pressure levels off, in-line with the degas bottle hose using
typically between 12-18 psi (83-124 kPa). Rotunda 014-R1068 adapter. (Figure3)
PAGE 2
TSB 07-21-5 (Continued)
c. Raise rear of vehicle 2˘ (61 cm) so front of
vehicle is angled down. Pressurize cooling
system with pressure tester and remove the
EGR valve; inspect for coolant in the intake
manifold at EGR valve location. Maintain
pressure for up to 15 minutes. An EGR
cooler gross leak will produce coolant in the
intake manifold almost immediately. It will
take up to 15 minutes for coolant to be
evident in the intake manifold for the
smallest EGR cooler leak. If coolant is
present in intake replace the EGR cooler;
refer to WSM, Section 303-08. (Normally
when the EGR cooler has failed, there will
be coolant in the exhaust. Hydro locking of
the engine is also possible.) Refill the
system and proceed to Step 5.
NOTE
REPLACE THE OIL COOLER AT THIS POINT IF
NECESSARY AS OUTLINED IN STEP 2.
CAUTION
COOLANT ENTERING ANY COMBUSTION
CHAMBER MAY CAUSE A HYDRO LOCK
CONDITION. EVACUATE INTAKE PASSAGES
AND COMBUSTION CHAMBERS OF ALL
LIQUIDS. REMOVE GLOW PLUGS (REFER TO
WSM, SECTION 303-07B) TO ASSIST IN
Figure 3 - Article 07-21-5 VENTING LIQUID FROM COMBUSTION
CHAMBERS, BEFORE ENGINE IS STARTED.
a. Pressurize the cooling system until the
gauge pressure levels off. 5. With the pressure tester still installed as
outlined in Step 4, release cooling system
b. Inspect for external leaks especially in the pressure, leaving the tester in place. Seal
heater core area. Replace the heater core if pressure bleed. Drive the vehicle at Wide Open
necessary, refer to Workshop Manual, Throttle (WOT) / high load / maximum boost.
Section 412-02. Refill the system and Observe whether the cooling system pressure
proceed to Step 4c. exceeds the holding pressure of 12-18 psi
NOTE (83-124 kPa) noted in Step 3, and/or if coolant
ON 2004 E-SERIES 6.0L BUILT BEFORE is venting through the degas bottle cap.
05/29/2004: IF THE HEATER CORE OR OIL a. If pressure is not greater than the holding
COOLER ARE REPLACED, ALSO REPLACE THE pressure noted in Step 3, and no venting
HEATER CORE INLET HOSE; THE REVISED from the degas bottle occurs, perform Step
HOSE CONTAINS AN INTERNAL FLOW 7 (if applicable) and return the vehicle to the
RESTRICTOR. REFER TO TSB 05-2-5 FOR customer.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.
PAGE 3
TSB 07-21-5 (Continued)
b. If cooling system pressure is greater than • Once the cylinder head is removed, place the
the holding pressure noted in Step 3, and/or cylinder head on a bench with the gasket side up.
the degas bottle cap vents, replace the If the gasket surface must be turned down, use a
head gaskets. Refer to WSM, Section piece of clean cardboard on the bench surface to
303-01C for head removal/installation and protect the cylinder head from damage. Do not
head flatness specification, check the allow the cylinder head to slide on the gasket
surface of the heads for flatness and/or surface, even on cardboard.
imperfections. Refer to WSM, Section
303-00 for the cylinder head flatness CLEANING THE CYLINDER HEAD AND DECK
measuring procedures. Use the following SURFACE
revised head bolt torque sequence and The only tools approved by Ford Motor Company
specifications. (Figure4) for cleaning the cylinder head and deck surface are
plastic (Figure 5) and wood scrapers, combined with
use of Ford approved cleaners. Ensure that the
mating cylinder block deck surface is completely
free of solid contamination, corrosion, and fluids.
NOTE
STAINING OF THE METAL SURFACE IS
CONSIDERED NORMAL AND DOES NOT AFFECT
SEALING ABILITY.
CAUTION
DO NOT CLEAN DECK SURFACES UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCE WITH STEEL RAZOR BLADES,
ROTARY ABRASIVE DEVICES, OR ABRASIVES
INCLUDING: ROLOC AND 3M BRANDED
Figure 4 - Article 07-21-5 SCOTCHBRITE PRODUCTS OR EQUIVALENTS,
6. Ensure the cooling system has been thoroughly ROTARY WIRE BRUSHES, SINGLE HANDLED
flushed if any contamination had occurred, and WIRE BRUSHES, HAND ABRASIVES SUCH AS
new antifreeze is installed after all repairs have SANDPAPER OR EMERY CLOTH, ANY CARBON
been completed. Refer to WSM, Section STEEL BLADE. THESE PRODUCTS WILL CUT
303-03. Make certain to follow the cooling AND DAMAGE DECK SURFACES RESULTING IN
system air bleed procedure, or additional LEAKS. ABRASIVE PARTICLES MAY ALSO
failures may result. ENTER THE ENGINE CAVITIES CAUSING
INTERNAL ENGINE DAMAGE. USE OF THESE
7. For 2004 (built after 9/29/03)- 2006 F-Super TOOLS CAN ALSO GREATLY AFFECT THE
Duty and 2004 (built after 9/29/03) - 2005 FLATNESS OF THE SURFACE.
Excursion: reprogram the powertrain control
module (PCM) to the latest calibration using
IDS release B39.12 and higher. This calibration
contains a revised cooling fan strategy to help
reduce the occurrence of coolant venting.
Calibration files may also be obtained at
www.motorcraft.com.
CYLINDER HEAD HANDLING
• Avoid banging, dragging or scratching the cylinder
head at all times. When removing the cylinder
head, lift the cylinder head straight up off of the
dowels so as not to nick the cylinder head.
Figure 5 - Article 07-21-5
PAGE 4
TSB 07-21-5 (Continued)
PART NUMBER PART NAME PART NUMBER PART NAME
3C3Z-9P456-AE EGR Cooler (Built Before 9/29/2003) 3C3Z-6A831-AA O-Ring Oil Filter Hose
4C3Z-9P456-AF EGR Cooler (Built 9/29/2003 And 3C3Z-9A375-AA Washer Fuel Banjo
After) 3C3Z-9J469-AA O-Ring Heater Tube Front
3C3Z-6A642-AA Oil Cooler 3C3Z-9229-AA O-Ring Kit Injector
5C2Z-18472-AA Hose - Inlet Heater Core 3C3Z-6051-CA Head Gasket Kit <10/03 (Figure 6 For
6C3Z-8A080-B Degas Bottle (F-Series) Application)
4C2Z-8A080-AA Degas Bottle (E-Series) 6C3Z-6051-A Head Gasket Kit 20 mm (Figure 6 For
4C2Z-18476-AA Heater Core (E-Series) Application)
4C3Z-18476-BA Heater Core (F-Series, Excursion) 4C3Z-6051-EA Head Gasket Kit 18 mm (Figure 6 For
F6DZ-8100-A Cap - Degas Bottle Application)
VC-1 Cooling System Flush 4C3Z-6051-DA Head Gasket Kit Oversize (Figure 6
3C3Z-9E933-BA Gasket Front EGR Cooler For Application)
3C3Z-9E933-AA Gasket Rear EGR Cooler
(Continued)
Figure 6 - Article 07-21-5
OTHER APPLICABLE ARTICLES: 05-2-5 OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
WARRANTY STATUS: Eligible Under Provisions Of MT072105 Use SLTS Operations If Actual
New Vehicle Limited Available; Claim Additional Time
Warranty Coverage Diagnosis Or Labor
IMPORTANT: Warranty Performed As Actual Time
coverage limits/policies are DEALER CODING
not altered by a TSB. CONDITION
Warranty coverage limits BASIC PART NO. CODE
are determined by the 6051 42
identified causal part.
PAGE 5