dt466 help [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: dt466 help


westcoh
03-19-2009, 10:24 PM
Alright, just looking for some possible advice on what could be wrong with my truck, 97 International 4900 with 230hp DT466e, 175,000 miles. Every once in a while, the engine seems to be running fine until you shut it off, and then it doesn’t want to start again. Doesn’t matter if it sits for 10 minutes or overnight it just doesn’t want to start. Eventually if you try starting it, turn the key off, crank it over again, turn the key off, crank again and repeat it will usually start eventually, although on three occasions it wouldn’t start at all and it was towed to the dealership. First time the dealership thought it was fuel related and put in a new fuel filter and it started up, the next two times at a different dealership they figured an electrical problem, and went through all the wires, cleaned up some corrosion and it started fine, but the problem still hasn’t been fixed. Other times the truck starts perfectly fine, making it hard to diagnose the problem. I have all the paperwork from the dealer if you need specifics on exactly what they did/checked.

The truck has some blow-by and does use some oil. Sometimes when you start it up cold, it will puff a ton of white smoke until it warms up and then it’ll clear up. Other times you start it up and there’s no noticeable smoke. Occasionally when the engine is idling you’ll hear it miss once, but this doesn’t happen very often.

I had an oil analysis done a while ago and everything there was fine, and it seems to have plenty of power. Anyone with any ideas on where to start? I hope an overhaul isn’t necessary, but the no-start problem is driving me crazy.

jackattack
03-20-2009, 01:26 AM
I have an idea. Sounds similar to what my truck was doing, except mine was less intermittent, and more every f*in time. I hope John G gets on this one, because he fixed mine in a hurry, and for free! (I should have mailed him a donut or something). My truck didn't shoot any white smoke (air), so I am probably way off, but hey. Check your terminals at your battery. Get some sandpaper or a wire brush and make them bare metal. Mine had the SLIGHTEST bit of corrosion on them. (I usually take pretty good care of my equip too, so they truly werent that bad!) My truck would start ok cold at first, but not hot. Then it got to it wouldn't start at all. Ever. The ECM is apparently retarded and yada yada, just try that. Will it start with ether?

dan the cls man
03-20-2009, 01:42 AM
Alright, just looking for some possible advice on what could be wrong with my truck, 97 International 4900 with 230hp DT466e, 175,000 miles. Every once in a while, the engine seems to be running fine until you shut it off, and then it doesn’t want to start again. Doesn’t matter if it sits for 10 minutes or overnight it just doesn’t want to start. Eventually if you try starting it, turn the key off, crank it over again, turn the key off, crank again and repeat it will usually start eventually, although on three occasions it wouldn’t start at all and it was towed to the dealership. First time the dealership thought it was fuel related and put in a new fuel filter and it started up, the next two times at a different dealership they figured an electrical problem, and went through all the wires, cleaned up some corrosion and it started fine, but the problem still hasn’t been fixed. Other times the truck starts perfectly fine, making it hard to diagnose the problem. I have all the paperwork from the dealer if you need specifics on exactly what they did/checked.

The truck has some blow-by and does use some oil. Sometimes when you start it up cold, it will puff a ton of white smoke until it warms up and then it’ll clear up. Other times you start it up and there’s no noticeable smoke. Occasionally when the engine is idling you’ll hear it miss once, but this doesn’t happen very often.

I had an oil analysis done a while ago and everything there was fine, and it seems to have plenty of power. Anyone with any ideas on where to start? I hope an overhaul isn’t necessary, but the no-start problem is driving me crazy.
look at the fuel shut off on the injectoin pump see if the arm is moving if you can see if not test the wires on the back to se if the fuel shut of is getting 12 volt power

ynot
03-20-2009, 03:36 AM
I have an idea. Sounds similar to what my truck was doing, except mine was less intermittent, and more every f*in time. I hope John G gets on this one

My thought too, so I stayed out of this one :D . Nevr and a couple others do good work on these too...

westcoh
03-21-2009, 05:03 AM
Appreciate the thoughts so far, I will check out the battery terminals, sure would be nice if something that simple would fix it for me. I've never tried starting with ether. I'll check the wires for the fuel shut-off too. Lately though it has been starting fine, which just makes it that much harder to diagnose. I'm sure though that soon enough it'll start acting up again. . .it always does eventually.

jackattack
03-21-2009, 07:11 AM
Appreciate the thoughts so far, I will check out the battery terminals, sure would be nice if something that simple would fix it for me. I've never tried starting with ether. I'll check the wires for the fuel shut-off too. Lately though it has been starting fine, which just makes it that much harder to diagnose. I'm sure though that soon enough it'll start acting up again. . .it always does eventually.


Yes, that's the general rule, something will act up eventually! And you wouldn't be able to guess my glee when it was something so stupid as a tiny bit of corrosion. I live in Michigan for christ's sake, I guess I need to work on rerouting my batteries to my CAB! Good luck!

John_G
03-21-2009, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys.... Now I've got a high bar to meet.

If it starts good cold and this is ONLY a problem with a hot or warm engine, I'd lean towards a bad cam sensor or an ICP problem.

Does the tach indicate engine RPM while you crank it, or does it stay around "0"? If it shows RPM, it's NOT the cam sensor, because that is the ECMs only engine speed input.

It could be fuel pressure, if the regulator on the back of the "rail" is not holding fuel pressure it can make for a hard start. What I don't get is why only hot, but it's "cheap" and quick.

You could have a weak HPOP or injector o-ring leak causing a long time to build ICP (Injection Control Pressure) which is needed to fire the injectors. You NEED a minimum of 650 PSI on any engine to start it, if you get 200-400 PSI of ICP during cranking with the IPR valve unplugged, the HPOP is ok.

Check your fuel color, if it's black or dark brown, you have a leaking injector 0-ring, do 'em all. This WILL cause your symptoms and would account for your oil useage.

westcoh
03-21-2009, 04:34 PM
I replaced the cam sensor last fall, and it doesnt seem to have made a difference. It does indicate rpm while cranking. It doesn't seem to make a difference whether or not the engine is warm or cold, it seems completely random. I'll check the fuel as well, although I've never noticed it to be brown/black before. Below is what's on the paperwork from the dealer about what they checked:

Went out to yard with eztech. Checked primer pump. It was stiff. Engine turned over, had oil pressure and icp. Put the laptop on, had ecm/battery codes. Wiggled the battery cables. Started up. Took off all cables to look for a bad connection. Couldn’t find anything. Pull and drag tests on wires/cables. Nothing. Put everything back together. Started up no problem.

After I got it back from the dealer that time, I took it home and parked it. About 4 hours later I tried starting and it wouldn't go. So back to the dealer it went and they did the following:

Check for codes. Got inactive codes for - #615, #224, #323 (coolant). Erase codes & run diagnostics with key on. Still has inactive codes for keep alive memory fault & #543 – ecm/idm com. Fault. Go through diagnostic check list. Remove harness from idm & found minor corrosion on pins #2 & #14. Clean up pins and connector. Apply dielectric grease to pins and reconnect idm. Still getting same codes. Tested relays with breakout tester - good. Check harness connector at firewall for ecm. Clean up pins and connector. Found ground wires at firewall corroded & worn from rubbing. Repair ground wires and clean up area around the ground post. Do pull test on all wires. Use breakout box to test circuits. Check and clean up deutch connector. Run diagnostics again and recheck codes. No new codes at this time. Leave truck overnight and recheck again in the morning.

After this, the truck ran fine for maybe a week or two and the no start problem started happening again. Thanks again for all the help.

Hvytrkmech
03-26-2009, 12:27 AM
When the engine is in a no start condition while you are cranking it does the yellow engine warning light come on?



Tim

french277
03-27-2009, 08:19 AM
John G.,

I am not sure if you mention this or not before in the forum did the DTE verison did have a checkvalve somewhere in back of the head ?

The reason why I ask due IIRC some of the DTE verison did have some issue with check valve I know I ran into few like that in France at least 3 so far.

One did have strainer got clogged up on the supply side the other two have combation of supply and return line messed up I found very fine metal shaving show up with white rag.

Merci,Marc

John_G
03-28-2009, 12:58 AM
Marc,

All pre-EGR DTe's have two check valves that can give troubles. The #1 is a "check ball" and it's on top of the fuel strainer under the (+), they like to deteriorate with time and addatives :(- #2 is the FPR at the rear of the rail, they get stuck or the spring brakes and you get very little fuel PRESSURE but the voulme is good when checked. This is an EASY fix as you remove the banjo-bolt at the rear of the fue rail with the doghouse off and install a new one (washers too BTW). While you are there, it only makes sense to replace the checkball in the strainer housing, although that doesn't tess you anything about which was to blame.

What I can't figure is why only HOT???? That's got Cam sensor all over it, but it's apparently been tried already.

french277
03-28-2009, 05:48 AM
Marc,

All pre-EGR DTe's have two check valves that can give troubles. The #1 is a "check ball" and it's on top of the fuel strainer under the (+), they like to deteriorate with time and addatives :(- #2 is the FPR at the rear of the rail, they get stuck or the spring brakes and you get very little fuel PRESSURE but the voulme is good when checked. This is an EASY fix as you remove the banjo-bolt at the rear of the fue rail with the doghouse off and install a new one (washers too BTW). While you are there, it only makes sense to replace the checkball in the strainer housing, although that doesn't tess you anything about which was to blame.

What I can't figure is why only HOT???? That's got Cam sensor all over it, but it's apparently been tried already.

That what I been thinking also why only on hot failure mode .,

There are few possiblty but I don't have direct answer however I can able combained Electrical and Mech parts and get add them together.,

Did any chance the Navistar issue the TSB bulleten related this issue if so any chance that possiblty if the part like cam sensor if get hot it will get irregaur reading { trust me on this part due alot of electrical items can get very funky when get very hot } and some reason if the cam sensor gap is widen cause to get irreguar reading it can happend which I did found out on one unit so far all I just do is install the new one and seems clear up the issue.

The other possiblty but I going " blind side or WAG " if the cam sensor reading the gear pulse and somehow got the pulse read irreguar it can kick the program out of wack as we call hot mode failure.

Now John., let me ask you to double check this item any chance did the modern DTE's do have crankshaft sensor in there ? I know pretty good percentage of spark ingited engines do have this. If the crankshaft sensor go bad it will just shut off the electronic fuel injector off.

Merci,Marc

John_G
03-28-2009, 03:16 PM
Marc,

The engines with EGR all have both a Cam and Cranks sensor, so 2002+ for the V8 and 2004+ for the I6 engines.

westcoh
04-06-2009, 06:18 AM
Alright, I put in a new fuel pressure regulator, so I'll see if that makes any difference, it's been running fine so far. I replaced the check ball on top of the fuel strainer last summer and it didn't make any difference.

As far as the engine warning light come on during a no-start, I can't recall but I do remember the dealership asking me the same question. If it happens again I'll check.

I checked the fuel tanks as well and the fuel looks good and clean, no signs of any oil in the tanks.

One other thing I remembered was on two occasions last year where it didn't wanna start. Eventually it started up, ran for about 5 seconds and died, and then didn't wanna start again. Usually when it does finally start, it'll stay running without any issues other than these two times.

As far as something electrical getting too hot at some point, that's definitely a possibility as the radiator was in poor shape when I got it.

Again I appreciate everyones help with this frustrating issue.

westcoh
04-07-2009, 11:45 PM
While doing some other work on the truck this morning, I thought maybe I'd check the breather tubes on the fuel tanks. The passenger side tank was fine, but I noticed the breather tube on the drivers side tank was completely plugged. Would this account for any of the symptoms of my truck? I've never noticed any vacuum build-up or heard any air sucking into the tank when I've opened the tank to fill it up before, although usually I just leave the truck idling, so maybe I've just never heard it. Any thoughts?

sdan27
04-07-2009, 11:49 PM
that's the tank that the engine draws off of. could very well contribute be the problem. i'd say fix it, run it, and see what happens.

snappy75
04-08-2009, 02:52 AM
I am waiting to see what fixes this, i am having hot only starting issue also. today my mech put in an injector sleeve? i think he said it was bronze where the injector sits and had coolant in the hole when he pulled the injector out to inspect. i also had one injector with torn oring. hot start problem, wouldnt start at all, had ipr and icp codes so i changed them. i will see tomorrow if it fixes hot start problem. you guys are great to spend the time thanks alot

jackattack
04-08-2009, 10:13 AM
that's the tank that the engine draws off of. could very well contribute be the problem. i'd say fix it, run it, and see what happens.

Not to hijack, but I wonder why only my truck seems to draw from the passenger side....... wierd.

french277
04-09-2009, 06:03 AM
Not to hijack, but I wonder why only my truck seems to draw from the passenger side....... wierd.

Some of the trucks do draw from driver side and some do draw from passenger side the main item you will have to find is fuel sender and pick up tube that is your primary tank unless you got the APU then it will get little more tricky with it.

Merci,Marc

jackattack
04-09-2009, 06:00 PM
I see. I know mine is passenger side because once I had my fusepanel under the drivers side hood replaces, and long story short they didn't put the fuse back for the fuel transfer pump. Found I had an empty passenger side tank, and a completly full drivers! Insert fuse, watch drivers side tank go down! Anyway, sorry, back to thread. :D

french277
04-12-2009, 01:04 AM
I see. I know mine is passenger side because once I had my fusepanel under the drivers side hood replaces, and long story short they didn't put the fuse back for the fuel transfer pump. Found I had an empty passenger side tank, and a completly full drivers! Insert fuse, watch drivers side tank go down! Anyway, sorry, back to thread. :D

Thanks I will keep in my mind when I run into like that.

Merci,Marc

John_G
04-12-2009, 02:48 PM
The ESC/Body controller is responsible for fuel transfer pump operation based on fuel level sensors.

Therefore, bad sensors, fuse, relay, pump motor, plugged vent etc can all prevent proper fuel transfer. Of course there are the wiring problems too.

Generally the PASS side is the DRAW side on dual tank trucks, so no, a restricted driver's side tank vent should not affect hot-start.

french277
04-12-2009, 07:17 PM
Good to know about that John.

Merci, Marc

westcoh
05-08-2009, 05:18 AM
Well, the saga continues. Yesterday, I started the truck up, it ran for about 20 seconds and died and wouldn't start back up. Towed to dealership again, they call me today and say yes we've got it running again it was just a blown fuse. Wonder how much my bill will be this time. At this point I have very little faith in the truck or the dealer. I'd sell it in a heart-beat if I hadn't already dumped so much money into it.

IHBUCKEYE
05-08-2009, 06:43 AM
Please let us know which fuse was bad with location in fuse panel ( F-1 F-2 etc..). Would the eng crank but not start or not crank at all? Also did it turn any warning lights on in the dash? I have not read all the posts in this thread and am not sure if it has been checked already but you may want to look at the ecm power relay located above the engine on the firewall for burnt/loose terminals. I have seen this cause intermintant no starts many times.

french277
05-09-2009, 07:47 AM
Je ne suis pas sûr, mais si ma mémoire me sert le droit certains des camions de Navistar ont vraiment l'alimentation de batterie seperated au module ECM et le connecteur peut être corrodé ou faible il peut causer la question d'intermment.


I am not sure, but if my memory serve me right some of the Navistar trucks do have seperated battery feed to the ECM module and the connector can be corroded or weak it may cause intermment issue.

Merci,Marc