12.7 detroit horsepower [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: 12.7 detroit horsepower


heath454
10-04-2009, 04:57 PM
hey guys im new on here and have been reading about all the things you can do to gain horse power but i cant find any answers to fixing series 60 detroits.i just want to know if their is ecm codes,resistors ,cailabration codes,little things u can do to change stuff without spending thousands of dollars to get some juice out of a detroit.it is a ddec 4 2001 peterbilt.it isturned to 500 hp 1650trq and it is the BK series engine.i have hers of changeing calibration codes to .75 the guys at detroit in henderson ky say it will give u about 20 hp but others say it does nothing.i have also herd of putting a map sensor from a gm car but cant get no answer on which one to use or if it actually works.someone please help if they can we pull dump bucket and im usually 83000lbs or more and i hate detroits power thanks heath

black_dog106
10-04-2009, 06:35 PM
Hello Heath: Havent got any Detroit info for you but welcome to the forum...:happymugs

truckdriver
10-04-2009, 09:29 PM
Hello Heath: Havent got any Detroit info for you but welcome to the forum...:happymugs

http://www.pdidiesel.com/productinventory.html[/I]
I know some guys are happy with thier CAT stuff. They do the same for detroits. There is also pittsburgh power.

John_G
10-05-2009, 12:25 AM
Cal codes are more for smooth idle and economy than power from what I recall and the number I remember is 0.67.

Set the overhead, keep good filters in the fuel system and you are WAY ahead of the average 500HP mill. If you have a "DAVCO" (IMO the only good diesel fuel filter), change it ONLY when the fuel is sitting within 2" of the top and no sooner.

Make SURE the fuel heater, if equipped, is OFF in the warm weather (above 20*F), hot fuel kills your power by lowering the fuel density (fewer BTUs per gallon due to expansion).

heath454
10-08-2009, 08:08 PM
does any one know if the pitsburgh power really works we are tierd of this gutless motor

M123KT-450
10-08-2009, 08:46 PM
How about a motor swap ?

Replace that tired Dogtroit with a fine Cummins or Cat unit . . .


Mike

pullingtrucker
10-08-2009, 11:01 PM
The Pitts Power box does work and so does the Bully Dog Downloader. Neither is cheap, but when a person goes looking for horsepower they should understand its gonna take money. Before you look into either one, I would start with the basics...just like building a hot rod. Get the fuel and air in and exhuast out. Address fuel flow and pressure with a Davco or FASS system and high quality filters (you don't want to destroy a motor with crap in the fuel). Then look at a high flow exhuast consisting of a high flow muffler and a ported exhuast manifold. Also look at your harmonic damper and install a new one if the miles are up there or it looks bad...add a balancer while your at it. High quality oils and a good bypass filter will help insure your driving pleasure once the motor is producing HP/TQ. Along with all this you can wrap the exhuast pipe coming off the turbo and put a turbo blanket on to help keep the spent gases flowing. Like I said earlier do the simple and inexpensive things first and build on those gains until you are ready of bigger power...just adding a box or tuned ECM will more than likely result in less than expected gains if the other areas of the engine aren't upgraded also.

heath454
10-09-2009, 01:24 AM
thanks for the info we have had it in the shop several times and we have eliminated air in fuel computer programing new turbo charged air cooler boost sensor injectors and other basics we just came back from oaklahoma last nite and we had 77000 lbs comeing up I44 would hit the hills at 75+at the bottom and be 35-40 at the top giveing it all it had.but detroit and a locall shop here in town say it is doing all it can.its 500hp and my boost pressure comes rite up to 31lbs with no hesitation good fuel pressure and less than 3lbs on restriction I personally think tha 3;55 rears and a overdrive tranny is just a little high final drive ratio for a low torque detroit what are ur guys opinions would like to hear from some people about this thanks

M123KT-450
10-09-2009, 01:54 AM
I sir am a big fan of running lower gears ! what you spinning for tires ? 11R22.5's ? you could drop as low as 5.29's and still run 75-77mph. . .

you got 3.55's now ? I would try some 4.10's or 4.33's for sure. . .

I have a .70:1 15th gear in my Mack with 6.38 gears it dose 65mph@2,000rpm


Mike

heath454
10-09-2009, 02:29 AM
i think mine is .74 overdrive and lopro 24.5 63 at 1350 rpm

bmoeller
10-09-2009, 02:45 AM
Sounds like 3.55 gears then. I'd swap in a set of 3.70's. Won't cut the nuts on mileage and will help the power. Especially from where you live.

Also, do you have a 9/10spd trans? If so, swap in a 13. Being able to split the top side will make ALL the difference in the world. A friend of mine did that with his 12.7 500hp truck. Said it made a HUGE difference swapping out the 10 spd.

We have an ISX500/1650 with 13spd RR/3.70 gears/22.5 talls in a T8, and have a 525/1850 C15 with 13spd RR/3.55/ 24.5lp in my W9. The guy that runs the T8 STILL can't hang with me on hills. LOL I get better mileage as well.

heath454
10-09-2009, 03:10 AM
it is a 13spd we are thinking on getting the pittsburgh opower box we just dont want to be covering up a problem but both shops say everything is were it is supposed to be:bang

Paul E
10-09-2009, 03:17 AM
If your certain the health of your engine is good then I second what Pullingtrucker said,
aftermarket ECM program is in order( Pitt power box is old tech )expensive yes but cheaper than a gear change. more than just HP/TQ increases. they advance timing also
(remove low NOX settings ) which increases mpg. I had a set up similar to yours and at 1350/65mph it did not maintain speed well in hills. at 1425 it was good but I didnt want to drive that fast. at this time you have 2 options Bully Dog or PDI St George Ut. BD has more focus on mpg but would still take you to 575hp/ 1900tq. PDI is more straight hp but some mpg increase also. Ive been useing BD in my Acert Cat for almost 1 yr now and
you couldnt pry it from my cold dead hands. it completly changes how the engine runs and i gained .6-.7 mpg and it pulls like a beast. check out your options.this really works.

also,with the added hp/tq your 1350/65mph cruise rpm will work well.

M123KT-450
10-09-2009, 03:23 AM
Them 3.55s are awful weak gears...

The trucks I run are older...

But I normally run 4.33, 4.44, 4.56, and 4.88s in my modern powered heavy trucks.

And

5.29s, 6.38s, 6.44s, 6.72s and 10.11s

In my relics some even repowered with high powered modern engine n trans combos...

Mike

heath454
10-09-2009, 03:27 AM
so u would recomend the bullydog or the pdi over the pittsburgh power what is your reasoning.im a little confussed does the pp.change low nox and or timming settings or does that have to be done with ecm programing.it has been reprogramed from a guy in texas but i got absolutly no info on what he done but it did help it some

M123KT-450
10-09-2009, 03:28 AM
If your certain the health of your engine is good then I second what Pullingtrucker said,
aftermarket ECM program is in order( Pitt power box is old tech )expensive yes but cheaper than a gear change. more than just HP/TQ increases. they advance timing also
(remove low NOX settings ) which increases mpg. I had a set up similar to yours and at 1350/65mph it did not maintain speed well in hills. at 1425 it was good but I didnt want to drive that fast. at this time you have 2 options Bully Dog or PDI St George Ut. BD has more focus on mpg but would still take you to 575hp/ 1900tq. PDI is more straight hp but some mpg increase also. Ive been useing BD in my Acert Cat for almost 1 yr now and
you couldnt pry it from my cold dead hands. it completly changes how the engine runs and i gained .6-.7 mpg and it pulls like a beast. check out your options.this really works.

also,with the added hp/tq your 1350/65mph cruise rpm will work well.

I was always told to drive big trucks by the tach not the speedo...

If it pulled better at 1425 down shift a gear n pull the hill a gear lower...

Mike

CumminsISXpower
10-09-2009, 03:34 AM
Have never done any Bullydog detroit work,but a year ago i installed a Pitts box on a DDEC3 with 800000 miles,we changed the turbo,OEM per Pitts power,and its runs great,love the power!!!!!!!!!! I think on the DDEC4 engines they have an upgrade turbo,or recommend you to put a DDEC3 turbo on it,4 turbos were junk:thumbsup

M123KT-450
10-09-2009, 03:35 AM
My father has an M123 with a 635hp KT-cummins backed up by a 13spd it has 10.11 gears behind it max speed 52mph pull anything you can hitch it too...

The old V-300 cummins n Mack 10spd that powered it before pulled loads as heavy as 300ton generation sets straining hard n barly moving...

Now it tow a D11R Cat like its not there...

Mike

heath454
10-09-2009, 03:35 AM
i just wonder if the damn detroits are that damn powerless or if we have another problem.i just dont know what else it could be like i said reprogramed ecm.new stock turbo,charged air cooler.boost sensor.ran the rack.injectors are good.their is nothing else to do.boost pressure is always rite on the money. it just wont relax and pull good almost always 15 lbs of boost on flat ground seems like its always working hard and then on a hill it is awefull

bmoeller
10-09-2009, 04:11 AM
3.55s with a 1650tq motor isn't the best combo.

I can tell you this, when I was still running the ISX500 and a 13spd, I could out run and outpull a ISX550 that had a 10spd by a LONG shot! Running with the guy, I had to always hold back after pulling grade to let him catch back up.

Paul E
10-09-2009, 04:14 AM
Ive had PP box on 2 trucks with good results but since the aftermarket has evolved to complete reprogramming of the OE software the PP box no longer compares. the PP does nothing for timing or low NOX. it only keeps injector open longer to add more fuel. in a sense it retards timing some. since your ECM did not come from DD I would check with your guy in Texas to see what was or could be done. the important thing is you have options beyond PP. do yourself a favor and do some homework

heath454
10-09-2009, 04:20 AM
who would you recomend to reprogram the oem software i have no idea wht the guy in texas is capable of doing the shop that worked on the truck last sent it to him we really had no contact with him

M123KT-450
10-09-2009, 04:42 AM
Well Detroit was always a little doggy but I don't recall them being as bad as your saying...

I ran some 8v71 238hp n 8v71T 350hp they both would pull 100K but you used every gear in the 13 n 15spd's behind them.

I have notice in the past the Detroit powered trucks normally had a few more trans speeds n a lower rear end gear.

Example: 400 cummins 10spd n 3.73s in the same truck the Detroit would have a 13spd n 4.33s... Behind it.

I would make sure all fluids n filters are clean clear n full.

Make sure the motor is running right before gearing it down a ratio or 2.

Mike

Phantom 309
10-10-2009, 01:18 AM
i just wonder if the damn detroits are that damn powerless or if we have another problem.i just dont know what else it could be like i said reprogramed ecm.new stock turbo,charged air cooler.boost sensor.ran the rack.injectors are good.their is nothing else to do.boost pressure is always rite on the money. it just wont relax and pull good almost always 15 lbs of boost on flat ground seems like its always working hard and then on a hill it is awefull

well an educated internet guess needs some more info,. how much weight,
wind, terrain etc,.
the 12.7 will pull hard if its healthy,.
15lbs of boost and working hard would lead me to think you have an exhaust restriction,.intake restriction, or maybe incorrect cam timing, possibly the wrong turbo,.
i pulled a 4 legger with my 430 ddec 2 grossing always more than 130,000lbs with 3:70's and a 15 over,.
it was happiest above 1500 rpm all the time and got its best fuel mileage too,
you have a reprogrammed ecm? you,ve ran the rack?
interesting,. ran the rack is an old saying refering to 2 strokes,.
howsabout posting a pic or two of your truck? motor?
pittsburgh diesel sends their ecms to a guy in pennsylvania, he reprograms them and sends them back,. i,ve managed to track him down and have had a few phone calls with him but he has little patience for the hype associated with alot of drivers and their engines,.and prefers not to deal with people that don't do their own work,. different injectors, different turbo, and different camshaft , all options,..all increase horsepower pretty much like any motor,.marine specs are a good place to start when buying parts,.
Engines are a simple heat pump,.the larger the displacement the more power, simple physics,. the 12.7 detroit is at a disadvantage by by 2 litres or so,. but it can be made to run with the big dogs,. there are a few in the 800-900hp range, but they lack the torque of the larger longer stroked cat engines,.ddec3's are the easiest to bump horsepower
In real life there are few and far between big powerful motors anymore, so even a 600hp engine is enough to impressive 95% of the other drivers on the road,.

Nick
96 kw 900l 12.7 detroit, tweaked a little,.

heath454
10-10-2009, 05:11 AM
thanks nick the ternm run rack im sure u know i ment valve and injecter adj.i spoke with the person that reprogramed the ecm all he done was backed the low nox up to a 1999 year model and that was it.it has a stock ddec 4 wast gated turbo on it timeing has been checked strait through exhuast. we was grossing 77,000lbs little to no wind but we were running up I44 from tulsa to stlouis and the hills just killed it made our 430hp c12's seem really tough just not sure what to do we are thinkiing about putting a pitsburgh power box and a fass filter to start with and i think im going to heat wrap the exhuast and make me a turbo blanket.i cant find anyone who can reprogram my ecm for higher horsepower.

wcdiesel
10-10-2009, 12:55 PM
DDEC IV , 13 speed - I,d be running 3.7 or 3.9 rear end but fix your boost problem first - you should have 36 psi boost with a stock ecm and turbo ( thats pre egr )

heath454
10-10-2009, 01:49 PM
well 31-32 is all i can get out of it i though that was max for 500hp

pullingtrucker
10-12-2009, 01:29 PM
Well heath454, if you can't find anyone to reprogram your ECM...then you haven't search hard enough. Like I posted earlier and Paule posted too, PDI out of Utah does reprogramming and Bully Dog does a tuner (the best bang for your buck in my mind). The Pitts box is a good product, but it is old technology now that tuning the ECM and downloaders are available. Let me put it to ya this way. Why would you want to spend roughly $2400 for a Pitts box when all it does is add more fuel and keeps the stock timing (if not retard it just a tad more) when you could spend $2800 on a Bully Dog downloader and have a option of different programs that will match YOUR MOTOR and be able to adjust other parameters like speed limitor, and cruise speeds. These parameters are only the first ones that they have available and more to come.

As for the fuel airation. How did ya get it out already without a aftermarket product? All stock fuel systems get fuel airation because of the tank shaking and retun fuel splashing into the tank. The only way to solve this problem is with a FASS or Air Dog system. A Davco does a great job flowing and filtering the fuel, but doesn't remove near as much air as the other systems I listed. A fuel cooler would also be a great addition to any truck.

heath454
10-13-2009, 03:16 AM
well i had excessive air in my fuel i was running with a clear hose but i did fix that issue as far as the fuel in air naturally i understand and will be purchasing something to fix that.I am still confussed about the ecm reprograming i was thinking u were talking about someone that i can take the truck to and they will change programing to some thing for performance and that i cant seem to find in my area,But are u talking about reprograming through items like the bully dog or what.i guess im kinda stupid to the options no one around here seems to worry about the performance of a truck.

heath454
10-13-2009, 03:51 AM
ok i understand a little more went to the websites pdi reprograms bullydog is add on so wich is a better deal i guess.i would like to think that spending 2800 on bullydog would get u more than 60 horse but maybe that would be a big difference IDK what should we do PDI, BULLY DOG ,PITTSBURGH?????

pullingtrucker
10-13-2009, 01:11 PM
If you call and talk to the guys at PDI and/or Bully Dog they are very helpful when it comes to figuring out what you want for a result. I talked with the 2 east coast reps for PDI ( I won't name them yet since I don't know if they have everything up and running) and we figured a stage 2 tune for me since I sled pull. This was gonna suit me pretty good, but if I had a warranty issue there was still a small chance that CAT would find the codes in the ECM and void the warranty or I would have to swap the ECM out on a trip to the CAT house. Bully Dog makes a bigger difference than 60 HP, the big difference is in the engines timing which will wake the motor up in almost the whole RPM. I talked with the head guy behind the Bully Dog downloader and the lead enginner and have decided on their normal power/economy setting for everyday driving and a 900 HP tune for when I hook to the sled. They can pretty much design any program you want just like PDI can. The thing I like about the Bully Dog was the ability to switch from one setting to the next with out having to swap out the ECM or send it anywhere. Also the downloader makes the truck look stock compared to the Pitts Box that can be seen. I really like the sleeper effect. The choice is altimametly yours on what you prefer. I don't know where ya live, but I will check with the PDI guys to see if they are up and running on the east coast and you can talk with them if ya want.

heath454
10-14-2009, 01:11 AM
well didnt know that about bully dog so i will call them tomorrow i have sopoke with pdi and they were looking pretty promising but i will do a little lmore homework we are wanting to make a decision this week so i gota figure out what we are goin to do but i have pretty much rueld out the pp i really do think that changeing the timeing setting in my opinion will make a huge difference in the engines performance

heath454
10-14-2009, 03:14 AM
does any one know if bully dog can build a program that will give you more than 70 horse power from the power pup installer ???????

swaan
10-14-2009, 03:36 AM
Why are you so hot balls all over bully dog, just phone pdi and take to shaun.
A ecm from pdi is cheaper then bd and they will do what ever you want. I have there stg1 ecm on my 3406e and it flat hauls the mail! You can even get a used ecm of ebay and send that to pdi to get programed, that way you can keep yours for a good spare. Your milage will be up and you will have all the horsepower you will ever need, I know thats how mine is, could not be happier! JUST MY 2 CENTS>>>:rock

heath454
10-14-2009, 03:58 AM
thanks swaan i did talk to shaun today and he wa very helpfull i just want to make the rite decision that all seems like a lot of money to spend without a little research

swaan
10-14-2009, 05:56 AM
Ya no problem, Not trying to bust your nuts.
But if its horsepower your after and every thing else in the engine is sound,then its a nobrainer. For the added horsepower per doller$$, there is nothing that comes close to an ecm upgrade!! :thumbsup

pblankenship
10-14-2009, 07:50 PM
My two bits. I have run a PPower Box for the last 2 years on two different engines. I am happy with the horsepower, I am happy with the ability to adjust, but I am not happy with the economy or the increase in operating temperatures (both engine oil and coolant). I have talked with Shaun at PDI, very helpful and I believe knows what he is talking about. I have also talked with Bully Dog.

I can tell you what I am going to go with-Bully Dog. With the Power Pup I pay $2800, I have an economy tune and an economy/power tune WITH the availability of talking with a Bully Dog technician and getting tune all the way up to 1200 hp. If I was to do the same thing with PDI, I would have to have 3-4 different ECM's laying around, all of them costing $2400 to $3200 from PDI. Whereas with the Bully Dog I have the ability to switch tunes, tunes that put out just as much horsepower as PDI, but I only have to pay $2800 up front. In addition, if I take my truck to a shop and they do work and they decide to do an ECM flash, my $2800 has not been flushed down the drain, I just plug the Power Pup in, upload the file again, and away I go. Here is the last bonus, if I put someone else in the truck, and I don't want them to blow up the motor or my trans, or my rear ends, I just upload the economy tune, where if I had the PDI ECM, I have no ability to turn the horsepower down (unless I have an additional $2400 ECM laying around).

I wish I would have known about this before. But there is my two bits, and it's obvious to me which one to go with.

pblankenship
10-14-2009, 07:50 PM
My two bits. I have run a PPower Box for the last 2 years on two different engines. I am happy with the horsepower, I am happy with the ability to adjust, but I am not happy with the economy or the increase in operating temperatures (both engine oil and coolant). I have talked with Shaun at PDI, very helpful and I believe knows what he is talking about. I have also talked with Bully Dog.

I can tell you what I am going to go with-Bully Dog. With the Power Pup I pay $2800, I have an economy tune and an economy/power tune WITH the availability of talking with a Bully Dog technician and getting tune all the way up to 1200 hp. If I was to do the same thing with PDI, I would have to have 3-4 different ECM's laying around, all of them costing $2400 to $3200 from PDI. Whereas with the Bully Dog I have the ability to switch tunes, tunes that put out just as much horsepower as PDI, but I only have to pay $2800 up front. In addition, if I take my truck to a shop and they do work and they decide to do an ECM flash, my $2800 has not been flushed down the drain, I just plug the Power Pup in, upload the file again, and away I go. Here is the last bonus, if I put someone else in the truck, and I don't want them to blow up the motor or my trans, or my rear ends, I just upload the economy tune, where if I had the PDI ECM, I have no ability to turn the horsepower down (unless I have an additional $2400 ECM laying around).

I wish I would have known about this before. But there is my two bits, and it's obvious to me which one to go with.

pblankenship
10-14-2009, 07:51 PM
why it posted my reply twice, I don't know

ynot
10-15-2009, 02:40 AM
My two bits. I have run a PPower Box for the last 2 years on two different engines. I am happy with the horsepower, I am happy with the ability to adjust, but I am not happy with the economy or the increase in operating temperatures (both engine oil and coolant). I have talked with Shaun at PDI, very helpful and I believe knows what he is talking about. I have also talked with Bully Dog.

I can tell you what I am going to go with-Bully Dog. With the Power Pup I pay $2800, I have an economy tune and an economy/power tune WITH the availability of talking with a Bully Dog technician and getting tune all the way up to 1200 hp. If I was to do the same thing with PDI, I would have to have 3-4 different ECM's laying around, all of them costing $2400 to $3200 from PDI. Whereas with the Bully Dog I have the ability to switch tunes, tunes that put out just as much horsepower as PDI, but I only have to pay $2800 up front. In addition, if I take my truck to a shop and they do work and they decide to do an ECM flash, my $2800 has not been flushed down the drain, I just plug the Power Pup in, upload the file again, and away I go. Here is the last bonus, if I put someone else in the truck, and I don't want them to blow up the motor or my trans, or my rear ends, I just upload the economy tune, where if I had the PDI ECM, I have no ability to turn the horsepower down (unless I have an additional $2400 ECM laying around).

I wish I would have known about this before. But there is my two bits, and it's obvious to me which one to go with.

One must bear in mind the protection factors between a tuned ECM and a CAN-BUS interrupter. Just make sure you have OEM protection factors for the engine in your decision ;)

heath454
10-15-2009, 02:53 AM
well we have chosen the bd i just hope we have made the rite decision.im just affraid that i wont be pleased with the power it gives but i can always get a new program that is why i chose them and i felt they had newer better technolgy with changing timeing and basiclly writeing over the old programing.should be here friday cant wait thanks ill let ya all know how it does

pblankenship
10-15-2009, 05:52 AM
One must bear in mind the protection factors between a tuned ECM and a CAN-BUS interrupter. Just make sure you have OEM protection factors for the engine in your decision ;)

From what I was told, they leave all OEM safety parameters in the tune. I hope that is true.

SmokinCAT
10-15-2009, 08:58 AM
Also, one might do some research on the other Bully Dog products that are out there and check the reliability issues that some of the pickup guys are having.:fan

t800kwopper
10-30-2009, 12:52 AM
straight pipes should also be on your list as well!! it'll breathe alot better!!you'll love the sound too!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:bravo:happymugs

heath454
11-04-2009, 01:00 AM
well i am haveing major trouble with the customer service with bully dog and am very unhappy.it works but haveing some program trouble and cant get any satisfaction on geting it resolved i have literlly made 18phone calls since friday and one will call me back getting ready to send it back:bang

hispeed428
11-04-2009, 03:05 AM
Could you elaborate on the "some program trouble"? I'm still debating which way I'll go, ie BD or reprogrammed ECM.

pullingtrucker
11-04-2009, 10:03 AM
well i am haveing major trouble with the customer service with bully dog and am very unhappy.it works but haveing some program trouble and cant get any satisfaction on geting it resolved i have literlly made 18phone calls since friday and one will call me back getting ready to send it back:bang

Teah please give us a detail of what is happening. I bought mine and installed with no problems along with many other guys I know. Who have you been working with to resolve this problem? Is it one person or a different person each time? The head tech guy is great and I can give you his number and extension. From what I hear this man and a couple others are the ones that designed the Bully Dog Big Rig system so I know you will get the right answers from him.

heath454
11-05-2009, 12:51 AM
well when i first got the bd i imediatlly put it on the high hp setting couldnt help myself.we drove it for about 3 days and found that the throttle was very sensitive and what we do is a lot of start and stop on and off the throttle all the time.loved the power but it was hard to drive smooth.so i took it to the home pc and updated it.next day same thing so i called them.the first question they asked was have i tried to put it back to the normal 15% setting and i said well i updated last nite on the pc does that put it back to the normal setting and they said yes. so at that point i thought i ws running at the 15% but was a little confussed because it was no different lots of power lots of smoke real touchy.they then said well we will write u a program that is a little less sensative on the bottom end based off of the 15 % program because that is what i thought i was running. 8 days later they fianlly had a program (after i had called several times with no return call). I tried the program and very little increase from the stock power so now i was discusted, confussed, aggrevated.they got me that program on thursday nite i tried it friday and then contacted them on friday to tell them the news.i was told that they would get rite back to me that evening but they would be leaving for las vegas this weak and would be limited to what they could do. never got a call back so i started to call on monday morn leaving several messages stateing that i new they couldnt rite any programs while they were gone but i need to know why i cant get it back to the 15% setting.no call back.im sure that cell phones work in las vegas all i needed was a phone call.i then began speaking with a secratary who passed several mesg and she couldnt believe they were not returning my calls ethier.finally today at 1100am i got a call come to find out that u have to get a code from them to return back to the normal settings WHY WASNT I TOLD THAT 3 WEAKS AGO!!!!!! anyway its now at 15% not enough power but smooth easier to drive and they are supposed to be working on a program that will give me a higer power setting with a less sensitive throttle.guess we will see overall it does work and my milage went up 5 tenths running on the high power i like what it does i just wish they would communicate a little clearer. The person that u speak to to explain ur issues and what they need to rite for u is not a people person at least not to me anyway

379Longhood
11-05-2009, 03:37 AM
well when i first got the bd i imediatlly put it on the high hp setting couldnt help myself.we drove it for about 3 days and found that the throttle was very sensitive and what we do is a lot of start and stop on and off the throttle all the time.loved the power but it was hard to drive smooth.so i took it to the home pc and updated it.next day same thing so i called them.the first question they asked was have i tried to put it back to the normal 15% setting and i said well i updated last nite on the pc does that put it back to the normal setting and they said yes. so at that point i thought i ws running at the 15% but was a little confussed because it was no different lots of power lots of smoke real touchy.they then said well we will write u a program that is a little less sensative on the bottom end based off of the 15 % program because that is what i thought i was running. 8 days later they fianlly had a program (after i had called several times with no return call). I tried the program and very little increase from the stock power so now i was discusted, confussed, aggrevated.they got me that program on thursday nite i tried it friday and then contacted them on friday to tell them the news.i was told that they would get rite back to me that evening but they would be leaving for las vegas this weak and would be limited to what they could do. never got a call back so i started to call on monday morn leaving several messages stateing that i new they couldnt rite any programs while they were gone but i need to know why i cant get it back to the 15% setting.no call back.im sure that cell phones work in las vegas all i needed was a phone call.i then began speaking with a secratary who passed several mesg and she couldnt believe they were not returning my calls ethier.finally today at 1100am i got a call come to find out that u have to get a code from them to return back to the normal settings WHY WASNT I TOLD THAT 3 WEAKS AGO!!!!!! anyway its now at 15% not enough power but smooth easier to drive and they are supposed to be working on a program that will give me a higer power setting with a less sensitive throttle.guess we will see overall it does work and my milage went up 5 tenths running on the high power i like what it does i just wish they would communicate a little clearer. The person that u speak to to explain ur issues and what they need to rite for u is not a people person at least not to me anyway

:rantonHopefully this comes around for you and maybe I am slightly off topic but this stuff is why I am so insistant on my stuff being mechanical, Now I also realize that If you need to run in a competitive market you have to run electronic engines. But why can't some of these program writers get it right, the customer has to come first. If some of the guys who write the Ecm were end user direct things would be smoother, Kind of reminds me of a "cat engine performance shop" I am sure we all know to whom I refer spending huge effort on marketing and shiney pictures but won't stand behind anything they do and as far as i know no customer support.:rantoff Like I said heath hope this gets resolved because you don't seem to be asking for a lot just you ddec 500 to keep up to 435 C 12s

379Longhood
11-05-2009, 04:02 AM
these engines can make power :peelout
http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2003/Jul03/columns/high_performance.htm

Paul E
11-05-2009, 09:36 PM
Heath454, I understand your frustration but you are asking for a second custom program in a week and Ill bet it takes more than 5 min to write it. there cant be more than a couple engineers at BD capable of doing this and theyre probably at SEMA. I would not deal with a random customer service person on a custom tune.you need to talk to the lead engineer Justin Mcarthy. I can give you his direct # if you cant get him thru Cust serv. I know this will be resolved and you will be happy. Ive been there. Yes ,theyre communication skills should be improved. keep us posted

truckdriver
11-07-2009, 03:57 AM
these engines can make power :peelout
http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2003/Jul03/columns/high_performance.htm

I asked Bruce about that at GATS and he said the detroit guys were using nitrous. Take it for what it's worth but the highest HP electronic trucks were not using a PP box so who knows.

SMN
11-11-2009, 03:33 AM
I am disappointed to hear this about the detroit motor. I have been looking at a truck with the exact same specs. 13sp. 3:55 rears 500hp ddecIV in a 2001 379. I actually talked to Bruce, and he seemed to have lots of good things to say about potential power and performance from this series of detroit motors. This is the first negative bit of feedback that I have stumbled across. I am glad to hear of someones real world experience with one though, all be it not the best.

This is my first day coming to the site, it seems to be a good place filled with lots of good info.

Paul E, I came here because I saw in a post on cdlofit that you recommended this site to someone else, glad I came.

heath454
11-12-2009, 02:40 AM
its not a bad motor its just had a few things that we need to get worked out and the bully dog really gives it the power that it needs.im not really that disapointed in it now but b4 the bully dog i wouldnt give you a nickel for the power it had and bully dog is ok just new and trying to get all the kinks worked out but theyr ok and the product does work

SMN
11-12-2009, 03:14 AM
Where did you buy yours, and how many miles were on it?

heath454
11-12-2009, 10:27 AM
we bought it locally from an owneroperator and it has 1mill on it but motor has been overhauled truck was taken good care of.but i will tell u up front if you are looking for the power of a 500 cat or cummins they just dont have it they are not big torque motors in my opinion. adn will run good on flat ground but suck in the hills unless you put something like a bully dog on it then they run really good

PGM
11-12-2009, 01:31 PM
Currently I run 9 Detroit DDEC4's and ive run probably 50 of them over the years from right back at DDEC2's.

I love em and cant get enough of them.

Gearing is very important, we run a number of 12.7's in varied applications.

We Gross anywhere between 50t and 68t (110,000lb and 150,000lb) and we have a statuatory speed limit of 100kmh out here. (56mph)

We run .74 overdrive and run a final ratio of either 4.33 or 4.56 on 22.5 tires.

Typically either 470hp GK spec (1550ftlb) and some 500hp PK spec (1650ftlb).

We find they pull like a freight train because at the limited speed they are at 1550 to 1700 rpm. We average fuel consumption of 2.45kmlt highway and 2.0kmlt around town.

Anyone that says Detroits wont pull or are not a good thing either doesnt have them set up right, or doesnt know what they are talking about.

Its all in the gearing and the program.

Dont expect them to pull at 1400rpm, its just not going to happen, 1550 at cruising speed MINIMUM, but no more than 1750rpm.

Gearing, Gearing, Gearing !!!

:)

heath454
11-13-2009, 01:11 AM
i do agree with the gearing for sure

SMN
11-23-2009, 06:54 PM
Heath, how is the truck doing? Are you happy with the BD? What kind of fuel mileage are you getting now? Just curious to get an update after a little time has passed.

kotflbus
11-25-2009, 08:08 AM
[QUOTE=PGM;
We find they pull like a freight train because at the limited speed they are at 1550 to 1700 rpm. We average fuel consumption of 2.45kmlt highway and 2.0kmlt around town.

:)[/QUOTE]

My math may be a bit rusty, set me straight if I'm wrong. Are you saying your Detroits are averaging 5.75 mpg grossing from 100,000 to 136,000 pounds, just by maintaining 56 mile per hour? Do you guys drive over or around hills? :peelout

PGM
11-25-2009, 08:28 AM
My math may be a bit rusty, set me straight if I'm wrong. Are you saying your Detroits are averaging 5.75 mpg grossing from 100,000 to 136,000 pounds, just by maintaining 56 mile per hour? Do you guys drive over or around hills? :peelout

MPG dont know, like most of the world we embraced the metric system nearly 4 decades ago... :)

I tried to convert it to imperial for you guys and think i missed a decimal point or two, because it didnt work out !!

But the metric figures are spot on.

We run 7 axle trailer combinations at 50t and 9 axle B-Double combinations at 68t.

We dont have the option of travelling at more than 100kmh, ALL heavy trucks out here are mandatory speed limited at 100kmh (approx 56mph), if you are caught 3 times exceeding that limit the authorities ground the truck and suspend the registration for up to 30 days.

But as for the economy, most interstate trips out here average 1000+Km and its pretty common place for a combination to average 5000-7000km a week.

I dont have any problem getting 2.4kmlt on interstate, and 2kmlt around town all day long.

:)

heath454
11-26-2009, 02:58 AM
ok guys update on the detroit my fuel miliage is up to 6.45 yo 6.60 and we travel from farm to grain elevator mostly back road and two lane roads lots of start and stop slow moveing all the time.also we are usually grossing 81,000 to 87,000.the power is great milage up about a half mpg running on a high horsepower setting.BD has wrote me a few programs we are estimating about 650hp.the problem is between 1350 and 1475 on the tach if you try to maintain 40 to 45 mph the truck will surge and jerk like you are stabbing the throttle they are not sure why so they are looking into the problem and trying find a solution.otherwise it works and the power is awesome for sure.thanks heath

heath454
12-18-2009, 02:54 AM
well finally geting somewere b.d. is working on getting a high power program wrote that will keep the throttle from being to sensative they are being very helpfull and very patient.they wrote 2 programs already this weak and are working on another.we got the throttle trouble fixed but it took away alot of the extreme horsepower.still getting about 35lbs of boost so prolly around 580-600 hp just guessing but anyway well let ya all know what we end up with thanks to all of you for you input heath

DD14
12-28-2009, 05:26 PM
well finally geting somewere b.d. is working on getting a high power program wrote that will keep the throttle from being to sensative they are being very helpfull and very patient.they wrote 2 programs already this weak and are working on another.we got the throttle trouble fixed but it took away alot of the extreme horsepower.still getting about 35lbs of boost so prolly around 580-600 hp just guessing but anyway well let ya all know what we end up with thanks to all of you for you input heath

For your sensitive throttle situation you could look and see what the droop setting is and increase it.Someone may have set it a 0 they are usually set at 125.

DD14
12-28-2009, 06:16 PM
i just wonder if the damn detroits are that damn powerless or if we have another problem.i just dont know what else it could be like i said reprogramed ecm.new stock turbo,charged air cooler.boost sensor.ran the rack.injectors are good.their is nothing else to do.boost pressure is always rite on the money. it just wont relax and pull good almost always 15 lbs of boost on flat ground seems like its always working hard and then on a hill it is awefull

The 12.7 seems to like being run above 1500rpm but to know where it does not want to run just shift into a higher gear running on flat ground so you come in at 12/1300rpm hold it to the floor and watch the tach and turbo guages.Watch at what engine speed the turbo pressue jumps up to 31/32psi and that would be the lowest you want to let go if you want to run up a hill a little better.I did not see if you had 24.5,24.5 or lp tires but the 3.55 would not be an issue with the 13spd.

heath454
01-21-2010, 01:35 PM
well still haveing trouble with the davco filter getting ir between the filter and the fuel pump in my clear hose the air goes away if you take the filter element out so dont know what to do

Paccar Cat Nothing Else
01-21-2010, 11:26 PM
Just read this whole forum discussion and have just a couple things to add. First, noone mentioned the restricted fitting. If you are looking for free horsepower, drill out the restricted fitting in the return fuel line in the back of the head to .091". Also, when you run the valves, set it on the tight side. Detroits like that. And finally, from what I've heard, set the injector calibration codes to 10 less than what the injector says.

But while we are on the subject of 500hp detroits, I got to ask, has anyone else known the '00 500hp detroits to have a bad rep for rod problems? We've got two of them setting around and I've heard it was very common but was curious.

379Longhood
01-21-2010, 11:32 PM
well still haveing trouble with the davco filter getting ir between the filter and the fuel pump in my clear hose the air goes away if you take the filter element out so dont know what to do

Barring a leak I wonder if the filter media is pulling the air out of solution so that it is noticeable???

John_G
01-22-2010, 12:42 AM
Lowering fuel pressure and increasing return volume will not make you more power, neither will starving the injeector for fuel by drilling out the regulated return fitting. You can get a "little" more power with a hot engine and cold fuel but as soon as the fuel warms up, you are back to stock.

Paccar Cat Nothing Else
01-22-2010, 12:49 AM
Ok, then why in the world did detroit run a return line? It only makes sense that deleting the return would be much better right? No. It needs the return. Now I've seen guys that say drill it out with a 1/4" bit. Thats not a restricted fitting. I'm talking about drilling it out ever so slightly. I've seen an increase in hp on an engine dyno. And the .091" came from a detroit guy that determined that number by measuring fuel flow (somehow, somewhere - sorry I can't remember anything more precise. I just wrote the number down). Anyways that's all I have to say.

DD14
01-22-2010, 03:14 AM
well still haveing trouble with the davco filter getting ir between the filter and the fuel pump in my clear hose the air goes away if you take the filter element out so dont know what to do

For what it is worth I'm not a fan of the Davco and do not use one. It is possible your pump could be weak but it is just as possible a fuel line or fitting or o ring on the Davco is letting air into the system.Do you have a mech. fuel pressure gauge?If not get one.

DD14
01-22-2010, 03:32 AM
Just read this whole forum discussion and have just a couple things to add. First, noone mentioned the restricted fitting. If you are looking for free horsepower, drill out the restricted fitting in the return fuel line in the back of the head to .091". Also, when you run the valves, set it on the tight side. Detroits like that. And finally, from what I've heard, set the injector calibration codes to 10 less than what the injector says.

The restrictor should be drilled to "correct" fuel pressure which will give you a bit more HP. The gain depends on how bad your fuel pressure is,there is no magic number each application might use a different size.
FACT- you want no more than 65 psi. fuel pressure @ 1800 rpm. no load on the engine. If you have alot of spare time you can play with fittings and get the pressure as low as you can without cavitating the injectors under fukk load. I have gone to .115 with some moderate power cals.I have also have cals. with big injectors that an .080 wouldn't keep the injectors full.
The magic injector codes don't often result in any gain,have tried numerous combo's on the dyno and on the road without any significant gain but I'm sure someone will argue it?
Setting the valve adjustment tight may not be a good idea unless you plan to reset them often as they tend to tighten up with use.

But while we are on the subject of 500hp detroits, I got to ask, has anyone else known the '00 500hp detroits to have a bad rep for rod problems? We've got two of them setting around and I've heard it was very common but was curious.

Are they 12.7's or 14ltrs. I have not heard of any unusual rod failure issues

PGM
01-22-2010, 07:42 AM
The only ones Ive seen throw rods were DDECIII's at 470hp, they were shockers, they used to throw rods all the time.

Paccar Cat Nothing Else
01-24-2010, 12:20 AM
I'm thinking that they were 12.7's but i'm not sure.

wkxpress
01-31-2010, 05:41 PM
ok guys update on the detroit my fuel miliage is up to 6.45 yo 6.60 and we travel from farm to grain elevator mostly back road and two lane roads lots of start and stop slow moveing all the time.also we are usually grossing 81,000 to 87,000.the power is great milage up about a half mpg running on a high horsepower setting.BD has wrote me a few programs we are estimating about 650hp.the problem is between 1350 and 1475 on the tach if you try to maintain 40 to 45 mph the truck will surge and jerk like you are stabbing the throttle they are not sure why so they are looking into the problem and trying find a solution.otherwise it works and the power is awesome for sure.thanks heath

i solved this years ago when we had no internet. your turbo is too small to flow the exhaust volume your trying to flow. thats why your having the surging and when you back down the power no surge. more power will use more only when your pulling and the exhaust volume will increase a lot. pittsburg power is the only one i know that offers a larger turbo for a 12.7 det. its only 1000.00. not bad considering what your doing. also take the compressor housing off and sand it down on the inside till its smooth, then polish it till is shines like a mirror. you will love the difference this makes, the garret on a det is just simply too small

DD14
01-31-2010, 06:31 PM
i solved this years ago when we had no internet. your turbo is too small to flow the exhaust volume your trying to flow. thats why your having the surging and when you back down the power no surge. more power will use more only when your pulling and the exhaust volume will increase a lot. pittsburg power is the only one i know that offers a larger turbo for a 12.7 det. its only 1000.00. not bad considering what your doing. also take the compressor housing off and sand it down on the inside till its smooth, then polish it till is shines like a mirror. you will love the difference this makes, the garret on a det is just simply too small

I do not think the turbo is the issue for the condition he described,though a bigger turbo would certainly be a good addittion.If he said it had the surge issue under load (hard pull)at 1300/1400rpm that might make more sense for it to be turbo related,but the way I understood the situation he was just trying to maintain engine speed for which there would not be a flow issue.Depending on what rating the engine was origionally the stock turbo should flow enough to support 600hp. to the ground.I have run in the 650hp. range with a stock 500hp. turbo with no surge issues, but be aware the turbo won't live a long time.A good turbo choice would be a turbo from a pre '02 14ltr. which will bolt right with no real modifications.
I do not know what gauges you have but you eally need to have fuel pressure,Pyrometer and boost gauges and knowing what your boost is and EGT's are when this happens can help rule out certain things.
Make sure your fuel pressure is correct 65psi. max and also make sure your air intake pipes from the air cleaners to the turbo are right.I have seen Frieghtliners and others with 5" dia. from the air cleaners to the "tee" and only 5"dia. to the turbo which is not good.The pipe from the "tee" to the turbo should at least be 1" dia. bigger than the rest.Do not trust "filter minders" as they do not show the correct situation use a gauge only I have seen where they show no filter resriction but a gauge in the exact same situation would show 15".

wkxpress
01-31-2010, 08:13 PM
i have had several do the same thing at very light throttle. step on it and no big deal but under light load it surges violently to lightly. trust me. that will get rid of the problem

heath454
02-03-2010, 05:45 AM
to dd14 i have fuel pressure and boost gauge no pyrometer.fuel gauge is the stock gauge that came in the truck from peterbiltso not sure about it accuracy but i have concern about were the fuel pressure should be.example if i am at w.o.t. 1350rpm my pressure will drop down to 38-42 lbs but if im at w.o.t at 1650 it will be up around 60-65 so does that mean i should not run the engine under 1650 or what?In neutral at 1800rpm sometime 70 sometimes 75psi.at idle always under 25 psi.boost will run 33lb at 1375 and 35-37 at 1500+rpm with the bullydogand i do still have the stock 500 hp turbo

heath454
02-03-2010, 05:47 AM
thinking about another truck what motor is best to have in the 04-06 range cat cummins or detroit

DD14
02-03-2010, 04:12 PM
to dd14 i have fuel pressure and boost gauge no pyrometer.fuel gauge is the stock gauge that came in the truck from peterbiltso not sure about it accuracy but i have concern about were the fuel pressure should be.example if i am at w.o.t. 1350rpm my pressure will drop down to 38-42 lbs but if im at w.o.t at 1650 it will be up around 60-65 so does that mean i should not run the engine under 1650 or what?In neutral at 1800rpm sometime 70 sometimes 75psi.at idle always under 25 psi.boost will run 33lb at 1375 and 35-37 at 1500+rpm with the bullydogand i do still have the stock 500 hp turbo

If I were you I would instal a pyrometer right away you really need to know your egt's especially in a hard pull and especially when adding power,having one could save your engine.If you have any concern about your fuel pressure gauge you could use an oil pressure gauge in its place even just to compare readings.
Do not worry about seeing low fuel prssure readings that is the way the system works it is not like alot of other systems where higher is better or makes more power.I have had engines set up correctly that at idle the guage needle would constantly bounce off the pin by 0psi. so it was likely around 10/15psi.
If your readings are correct you need to drill out the restrictor fitting,if it is stock untouched it will be .80 drill it out to around .100/.105.What you are trying to do is get your pressure down to 65psi. max @ 1800 rpm. "no load" sitting in neutral,no A/C on,no engine fan on.....ok.You should also be checking your pressure readings when evrything is at running temp. as cold fuel will read a little higher.All your other pressure readings should drop a bit too which is good.
If you want a little more response here is a couple of other things you can do (1) change your droop to 0 (2) have your "low idle" set to 700rpm. These changes will give your engine better response when starting off under load.
You could definetly benefit from a bigger turbo,PP and Mich.Turbo have suitable turbos for your application but personally I would get a turbo from Det.Diesel from a pre '02 14ltr. engine as they are wastegated (quick response)and at the power levels you are talking will be fine.FYI I have used the DD/Garret turbos on 14ltrs that were in the 900/1000hp. to the ground and ran in the 850hp. range for daily use.These turbos should install with very little effort.You will need a different lower elbow for your air intake (turbo inlet neck will be larger dia.). You may have to adjust your exhaust a little as the overall length of the turbo may be a bit longer.Make sure your intake pipes are right size and whole system is all good.
If you do not have on a fuel cooler would also be a good addition and should strongly considered.
Hope this helps.

heath454
02-08-2010, 02:34 AM
ok havent tried a different gauge but with my current one i get 70psi at 1800 warmed up.now i have also noticed that i must have stuck thermostates because i never get over 160 degrees i dont think that is hot enough but not a big deal.my droop is at 125 im sure i had it checked a while ago but the mechanic said not to change it because it wont make anydifference except for on cruise but im sure he doesnt know what he is talking about as far a the turbo would it help to polish out my compressor wheel???WE just put a new turbo on this truck 6months ago b4 working with the bd and he isnt going to go for another already. my next big issue is why this truck runs so smoothe for the first 2 or 3 days of the week and then the rest of the week it will runn really rough and wierd like a totally different truck dont make any sense to me????When i get a pyrometer what should my temperature ranges be ???thank you for your help dd14 il be waiting to here back from ya

3406bcat
02-08-2010, 08:38 PM
If I were you I would instal a pyrometer right away you really need to know your egt's especially in a hard pull and especially when adding power,having one could save your engine.If you have any concern about your fuel pressure gauge you could use an oil pressure gauge in its place even just to compare readings.
Do not worry about seeing low fuel prssure readings that is the way the system works it is not like alot of other systems where higher is better or makes more power.I have had engines set up correctly that at idle the guage needle would constantly bounce off the pin by 0psi. so it was likely around 10/15psi.
If your readings are correct you need to drill out the restrictor fitting,if it is stock untouched it will be .80 drill it out to around .100/.105.What you are trying to do is get your pressure down to 65psi. max @ 1800 rpm. "no load" sitting in neutral,no A/C on,no engine fan on.....ok.You should also be checking your pressure readings when evrything is at running temp. as cold fuel will read a little higher.All your other pressure readings should drop a bit too which is good.
If you want a little more response here is a couple of other things you can do (1) change your droop to 0 (2) have your "low idle" set to 700rpm. These changes will give your engine better response when starting off under load.
You could definetly benefit from a bigger turbo,PP and Mich.Turbo have suitable turbos for your application but personally I would get a turbo from Det.Diesel from a pre '02 14ltr. engine as they are wastegated (quick response)and at the power levels you are talking will be fine.FYI I have used the DD/Garret turbos on 14ltrs that were in the 900/1000hp. to the ground and ran in the 850hp. range for daily use.These turbos should install with very little effort.You will need a different lower elbow for your air intake (turbo inlet neck will be larger dia.). You may have to adjust your exhaust a little as the overall length of the turbo may be a bit longer.Make sure your intake pipes are right size and whole system is all good.
If you do not have on a fuel cooler would also be a good addition and should strongly considered.
Hope this helps.

how do u know ur 1000hp to the ground?? where u get dynoed at??

DD14
02-09-2010, 04:24 PM
how do u know ur 1000hp to the ground?? where u get dynoed at??

The truck was dynoed a few different places but most testing was done where the engine was built at DD.

3406bcat
02-09-2010, 04:50 PM
The truck was dynoed a few different places but most testing was done where the engine was built at DD.

I never have good luck on the dyno, the last place i went they couldnt even pull my motor down...got as far as 650 on the ground and they said if they went any further my tires were slipping on the dyno, what a joke and a wast of money:thumbdownDont ever go to that international truck dealorship in desmoines Ia, what a joke!!! I had an appointment at 4:00pm to dyno my pete, got there rite at 4:00 and didnt get on the dyno till 6:30. me and a buddy were standing around in the shop and the shop guys would just walk rite past us and not say a word, good customer service:swearThen, finally when i got on dyno, I seen i had a antifreeze leak. It was a loose radiator hose clamp.The mechanic tightened it up and put another clamp next to it and when i got the bill they charged me 107.00$$ to do that. a full hour to tighten up a hose clamp??? :wtf I watched him do it, it took him bout 15min max, what a joke...and when he was dynoing my rig he put it to the floor and was winding it to 2500rpms. man I was hot!!! Il never go back to that discrace of a shop.:swear

3406bcat
02-09-2010, 04:56 PM
By the way, i love ur chicken lights...They look Ballzy:)

pblankenship
02-09-2010, 08:04 PM
I dealt with a shop like that in Spokane, they didn't run it up to 2500 but they let it get hot and then didn't stop, that ticked me off since I had just put a new head and cam in it. Put 700 to the ground and could have turned it up more but I could already see the tires spinning on the dyno. They didn't even strap it down, they just chained it in place. To their credit it was just a simple water dyno, so the extent was on or off, nothing in between. Of course they didn't have a torque readout either, very frustrating.

379Longhood
02-09-2010, 10:05 PM
Well boys I think you may have to start a chassis dyno thread , Kurt (Mr Haney)'s truck was dynoed at 1174 on a chassis dyno there is a link to the shop in the middle of the New manifold thread:guitar:happymugs

ddctech
02-10-2010, 01:11 AM
Do not waste your time drilling out the restrictor fitting. That lowers fuel pressure and returns fuel to the tanks faster, therefore heating your fuel faster. Warm fuel is not good for injectors, and taking fuel away also lowers power. Just dont do it!

Also, ill have to find it, but Detroit put out a tsb about not doing that a while back. Time to research

DD14
02-10-2010, 02:03 AM
Do not waste your time drilling out the restrictor fitting. That lowers fuel pressure and returns fuel to the tanks faster, therefore heating your fuel faster. Warm fuel is not good for injectors, and taking fuel away also lowers power. Just dont do it!

Also, ill have to find it, but Detroit put out a tsb about not doing that a while back. Time to research

If you are really a DD "C" tech then you'll know on pre '02 engines getting the fuel pressure right will make a difference,how much of a difference depends on where things were to begin with,and for the hot fuel you can install a cooler and other than a cooler there are not many better places to dissipate heat than in the fuel tanks and certainly better than in the engine.
If you do work between Outer Dr. and Telegraph Rd. and maybe have been lucky enough worked there since the late 80's early 90's or at least before the '02 emission changes you would likely know the history of drilling the restrictor fitting,in fact if you ventured around the P.Ctr. during those years there is a good chance we might have met or you would have seen me there.

3406bcat
02-10-2010, 04:43 AM
I dealt with a shop like that in Spokane, they didn't run it up to 2500 but they let it get hot and then didn't stop, that ticked me off since I had just put a new head and cam in it. Put 700 to the ground and could have turned it up more but I could already see the tires spinning on the dyno. They didn't even strap it down, they just chained it in place. To their credit it was just a simple water dyno, so the extent was on or off, nothing in between. Of course they didn't have a torque readout either, very frustrating.

Yea all they did was chain mine down too,they said when they have guys load a trailor and drive on the dyno they dont even chain it down they just run it...how unsafe is that??? 70mph not tied down wit a load on it...Broken driveshafts much? A 80000lb torpedo through the side of the shop:wtf

ddctech
02-10-2010, 02:39 PM
Can you even tell me what DDC stands for? You might get the dd. I work for a distributor, so dont start. Im looking through all of my notebooks where i keep past tsb's now. DD did put one out warning people not to do this. If this drilling out the fitting to obtain proper fuel pressure was correct, why didnt the factory do a campaign to fix this? Surely they know what is best for their product. Why would you want to lower the fuel pressure? All your doing is starving the injectors.

SmokinCAT
02-10-2010, 03:21 PM
Can you even tell me what DDC stands for? You might get the dd. I work for a distributor, so dont start. Im looking through all of my notebooks where i keep past tsb's now. DD did put one out warning people not to do this. If this drilling out the fitting to obtain proper fuel pressure was correct, why didnt the factory do a campaign to fix this? Surely they know what is best for their product. Why would you want to lower the fuel pressure? All your doing is starving the injectors.

I mean it only makes sense to want to keep the fuel pressure up in the rail, seems that with every other type of common rail thats the way to gain power. I guess the series 60 has some top secret design to help it make power with less pressure to the injectors and hot fuel. LOL :bang

DD14
02-11-2010, 12:57 AM
Can you even tell me what DDC stands for? You might get the dd. I work for a distributor, so dont start. Im looking through all of my notebooks where i keep past tsb's now. DD did put one out warning people not to do this. If this drilling out the fitting to obtain proper fuel pressure was correct, why didnt the factory do a campaign to fix this? Surely they know what is best for their product. Why would you want to lower the fuel pressure? All your doing is starving the injectors.

I must have offended you in some way which was not my intention..."don't start"? I'll humor your question about DDC,might it stand for Detroit Diesel Corperation?I do also know the difference between distributors and corperate (factory)To answer one of your questions,in the early 90's drilling the restrictor fitting was a "field fix" that was recommended by the factory,in fact the first time I saw this done,it was done by a senior application engineer from DDC and in fact it was done at DDC.
Lowering the fuel pressure "to a point" will not starve your injectors,at what point that will happen depends on a number of things such as the cal. that is in the ECM and/or injectors size.
If it makes no difference explain this...I have lowered the fuel pressure from 75psi+ to 65psi and picked up 3psi of turbo boost?...starving for fuel?...I think not.
I am not trying to be offensive but my guess...likely you haven't been with DD 10 yrs. and would likely explain why you do not think drilling the restrictor fitting came down from the factory but it did....I am wondering did you know what I meant by the P. Center?I was just trying to figure out if you were a factory tech or a distributor tech.
For what it is worth while you are looking through your TSBs look up 01 TS-06 from Jan.30/01.If it makes any difference the pictures in it are of me doing the fix to the turbo and it is even on my engine and was even done at DDC.
I'm not out here to give people bad information or to seem like I know everything as I do not but I do know this....what I do not know I can find out right from the source.Everything I put out here I have tried,if it works I say so if it does not I say that too and that is also why I do not get into issues with post '02 engines as I have very little hands on with them and have done no testing with them.
I have been fortunate enough to be able to try things on a dyno and then on the road in very consistant conditions and got to where I could come very close to equateing on road power loss or gain to what numbers will show up on the dyno.....that only comes from alot of seat time and experimenting on both.

DD14
02-11-2010, 01:04 AM
I mean it only makes sense to want to keep the fuel pressure up in the rail, seems that with every other type of common rail thats the way to gain power. I guess the series 60 has some top secret design to help it make power with less pressure to the injectors and hot fuel. LOL :bang

"it only makes sense"to keep the fuel up in the rail to absorb as much heat as it can...thats the way to gain power!As far as secret LOL read the above response and maybe you'll know where my information comes from....what about yours?I don't recall seeing you around there LOL!

ddctech
02-11-2010, 01:17 AM
Did you forget to mention that during the 90's, when they were drilling these fittings, it was for the 92's?

DD14
02-11-2010, 01:42 AM
Did you forget to mention that during the 90's, when they were drilling these fittings, it was for the 92's?

Are you for real?Did I mention anything about a two cycle engine???NO....Is that the best you can come up with....if there is a point you are trying to make get it done and go on about your business.

SmokinCAT
02-11-2010, 02:18 AM
Whats it matter if I was around "there". Why in the hell do want fuel to absorb heat, is the cooling system on those motors that bad that you have to use the fuel as coolant. Cooler/denser fuel makes more power, I dont care where your from.

Your 3psi gain of boost can be explained as well, by lowering your fuel pressure you lowered the amount of fuel injected per stroke, you gain in boost was caused by when you leaned out the motor it raised your EGT thus giving you your gain in boost.

If you understand any type of common rail you would understand that when you raise the pressure in the rail more fuel can be injected per injector sroke, hence why if you want a better running N14/ Big Cam you raise the pressure, if your running an 3406E/C15 you shim the pump to up the pressure, even on the new light duty diesels rail pressure is everything, so why would a detroit be any different.

Sorry DDC, but you detroit guys are hard headed.:gaah

DD14
02-11-2010, 02:19 AM
I mean it only makes sense to want to keep the fuel pressure up in the rail, seems that with every other type of common rail thats the way to gain power. I guess the series 60 has some top secret design to help it make power with less pressure to the injectors and hot fuel. LOL :bang

I forgot to comment on the "common rail" remark...the Series 60 is NOT a common rail system.

SmokinCAT
02-11-2010, 02:29 AM
Does one fuel rail feed all six injectors? Yes it does, therefore the best way to describe it is a common rail, it makes the idea easier to understand.

DD14
02-11-2010, 02:52 AM
Does one fuel rail feed all six injectors? Yes it does, therefore the best way to describe it is a common rail, it makes the idea easier to understand.

It is a desciption and gives some ideas but it also gave you the idea that the higher the fuel pressure the more power it would or should make which is not correct with only a few exceptions.
The system is a "unit injector system" and in the case of the Series 60 an electronic unit injector system,the 92 DDC T referred to was a mechanical unit injector system.
So in the situation with the Series 60 lowering the fuel pressure actually gives the injector a slightly longer pulse width for getting fuel into the cylinder which wil give you????? More power!

DD14
02-11-2010, 02:59 AM
Whats it matter if I was around "there". Why in the hell do want fuel to absorb heat, is the cooling system on those motors that bad that you have to use the fuel as coolant. Cooler/denser fuel makes more power, I dont care where your from.

Your 3psi gain of boost can be explained as well, by lowering your fuel pressure you lowered the amount of fuel injected per stroke, you gain in boost was caused by when you leaned out the motor it raised your EGT thus giving you your gain in boost.

If you understand any type of common rail you would understand that when you raise the pressure in the rail more fuel can be injected per injector sroke, hence why if you want a better running N14/ Big Cam you raise the pressure, if your running an 3406E/C15 you shim the pump to up the pressure, even on the new light duty diesels rail pressure is everything, so why would a detroit be any different.

Sorry DDC, but you detroit guys are hard headed.:gaah

This whole thing is getting......The DD system is different from Cummins and Cat.
For some reason you think I want to the fuel to absorb heat??I just as soon it either gets injected into the cylinder or gets out of the head so it DOES NOT absorb any more heat than it has to.

DD14
02-11-2010, 03:15 AM
Whats it matter if I was around "there". Why in the hell do want fuel to absorb heat, is the cooling system on those motors that bad that you have to use the fuel as coolant. Cooler/denser fuel makes more power, I dont care where your from.

Your 3psi gain of boost can be explained as well, by lowering your fuel pressure you lowered the amount of fuel injected per stroke, you gain in boost was caused by when you leaned out the motor it raised your EGT thus giving you your gain in boost.

If you understand any type of common rail you would understand that when you raise the pressure in the rail more fuel can be injected per injector sroke, hence why if you want a better running N14/ Big Cam you raise the pressure, if your running an 3406E/C15 you shim the pump to up the pressure, even on the new light duty diesels rail pressure is everything, so why would a detroit be any different.

Sorry DDC, but you detroit guys are hard headed.:gaah

Whats it matter?It doesn't!It just sounds like you must know more than the engineers that developed the engine as that is where I learned what I know about it and just thought maybe if you were there too maybe they had taught you something different.
I'm not sure why but for some reason you are thinking I want to use fuel to cool the engine?One of us can't read as I want the fuel that goes into the head to either get injected into cylinder or get out of the head before it absorbs any more heat than it has to.My boost wasn't gained by leaning out the engine,my other post will explain a little bit of that as well as inform you that the DD system though there are similarities is not the same as Cat or Cummins.
Hard headed????ME????Again I guess you know more than the guys at DD and that being said you know more than I.

SmokinCAT
02-11-2010, 05:17 AM
"it only makes sense"to keep the fuel up in the rail to absorb as much heat as it can...thats the way to gain power!As far as secret LOL read the above response and maybe you'll know where my information comes from....what about yours?I don't recall seeing you around there LOL!

See above, those are your words not mine.

How is the detroit different from the style of system that is used on the 3406E/C15?

A centralized fuel pump, with cam fired injectors, not too much different.

DD14
02-11-2010, 04:42 PM
i mean it only makes sense to want to keep the fuel pressure up in the rail,

**the previous sentence is where i took the "it only makes sense" from and i added the comment about the longer you hold the fuel in the head the more heat it will absorb and the "make power" part was me being a little sarcastic.**

seems that with every other type of common rail thats the way to gain power.

**the series 60 is not a "common rail system" but i am sure you have read my explaination of that.**

i guess the series 60 has some top secret design to help it make power with less pressure to the injectors and hot fuel. Lol :bang

*i guess i took the "lol" the same way i would had you just said in plain english that i have no idea of what i am talking about...unfortunately in this situation you are the one that is uninformed but....you are entitled to your ideas and opinions but that does not make them correct.
I suppose the same could be said of what i have said on this subject with the exception that those ideas and or opinions all came from the designers and engineers of this engine and that being said if the information i put out agree or disagree does not have any credibility with you.....well then who is being "hard headed"?

DD14
02-11-2010, 04:51 PM
See above, those are your words not mine.

How is the detroit different from the style of system that is used on the 3406E/C15?

*the injector controls are somewhat different and what information the injector gets from the ECM is different.
In this situation related to correcting or lowering the fuel pressure most of the corrections could also be done in the programming but that is not how the factory decided to deal with it.

A centralized fuel pump, with cam fired injectors, not too much different.

But different enough to make adjusting the fuel pressure the correct thing to do.

ddctech
02-11-2010, 05:13 PM
DD14, seems as though you were called out. Tell me, if this drilling of restrictor fittings came from ddc engineers, why weren't the engines updated or a campaign went out having these mods done. That was something that came out for the 92 series engine, a totally different animal. I've been around detroits my entire life, learned the majority of it from my father, who has over 30 years experience with a distributor. If you worked for the factory during the early 90's, you may remember the series 60 challenge. Look up who won it the first year it was held, in 92 to be exact.

Smokincat, I'm not hard headed, but this guy sure is. He is sure getting angry over people calling out his bogus info. I know dd's aren't known for a lot of hp, but if you want a decent, reliable engine that is inexpensive to fix, and gets good fuel mileage, consider the 60.

DD14
02-11-2010, 05:14 PM
Hey guys...I just wanted to say sorry for my part of this deal between DDC tech, SmokinCAT and myself getting so redundant and long winded.I do not mind question and debating but I think this situation is wandering beyond that.
I have always tried to give a little help where I can and that being said you all will have to sort out for yourselves what is right and what is wrong.
Makes you wonder if keeping your information to yourself is not a lot less complicated.

DD14
02-11-2010, 07:18 PM
DD14, seems as though you were called out. Tell me, if this drilling of restrictor fittings came from ddc engineers, why weren't the engines updated or a campaign went out having these mods done. That was something that came out for the 92 series engine, a totally different animal. I've been around detroits my entire life, learned the majority of it from my father, who has over 30 years experience with a distributor. If you worked for the factory during the early 90's, you may remember the series 60 challenge. Look up who won it the first year it was held, in 92 to be exact.

Smokincat, I'm not hard headed, but this guy sure is. He is sure getting angry over people calling out his bogus info. I know dd's aren't known for a lot of hp, but if you want a decent, reliable engine that is inexpensive to fix, and gets good fuel mileage, consider the 60.

If I am being "called out" so be it.There is nothing you or SmokinCat have put out to support the claim of my information being "bogus".

I am not sure why you keep going to the 92 which has nothing to do with this.Do you really think i do not know the difference?

Why I think the factory used a "field fix" and did not change the .80 fittings from the factroy is partly because every engine installation and/or power rating would bring different situations so there would not be a "one size" fix all and there were not always complaints.I wonder if you ever saw any of the pressure regulator that were tested?

So you have been around DD engines all your life and you dad he worked FOR or WITH a distibutor?Not that it make any difference but I believe you were trying to make a point and the same with the Series 60 challenge,I was never involved with it so why would I know who won it in '92?I believe a tech from the distributor in Ocala,Fla. won it one year and I would only know that because I know him.If your implication is that it was you then you would have seen the dyno that I spent a number of hours on and you would also know what the P.Cntr. is.
NOTHING IN THAT MAKES MY INFORMATION WRONG?

What I did for the factory was feild test engines/components,programs anything they needed.You mentioned TSBs I gave you a number of one that I participated in and the process was documented and photographed with me doing the work.
My point is I was there working with DD testing and that gave me access to alot of information and to engineers which most people and techs do not get and some of those engineers are very good friends of mine.
I was also lucky enough to be involved with engineers from the performance group who worked on developing parts and programs for engines that might be used in races like Pikes Peak or even the Rodeo du Camion,yes engineers from DD went up to that.I even spent alot of time on testing the programs used there.

I'll address your last remarks to SmokinCat...angry NO,a little frustrated YES and like I said there is NOTHING you have presented that makes my information "bogus" and the fact that you "know DDs aren"t know for alot of hp." and have nothing to say about what they can do is at least accurate YOU DO NOT KNOW.

I just try to help when I can!

ktw900
02-11-2010, 09:53 PM
well i just reread this thread and i will agree with dd14.i have ran a 92,95.and a 97,all series 60 the first two were 425 and the 97 was a 430/500.i started driving them before the fitting was drilled out and then got it done.the fuel psi dropped and the power went up.i didnt understand why that worked like that but it did.it seemed like in the 90s if you went into a detroit shop that was bout the first thing they would ask if it was drilled out.take that for what its worth,i am definately not up to speed on detroit stuff but i have put alot of miles on them.

379Longhood
02-11-2010, 10:52 PM
...angry NO,a little frustrated YES
I just try to help when I can![/QUOTE]

I have no detroit 60 experience at all. But I know I have been on both sides of the fence ,worked in truck shops and been an owner operator . Now at risk of starting another arguement I will say that it has been my experience that the manufacurer won't make changes unless forced to so I feel the why didn't Detroit make a repair order(not the exact terms) they only do what they have to. I can see the confusion about more flow , but I don't know how DDEC works. So I guess my point is I (we) apreciate everyones in put and I think typed responses are sometimes taken differently than they are intended. When I see detroit ???s I think where is Johnp3,DD14, ddctech and i am missing somebody??
Point is lets try to argue to the point and not insult one another:popcorn:gphug:happymugs

absolutediesel
02-13-2010, 05:27 AM
definately FASS system on a ddec with a pitts power unit........... I've got a customer that has several units over 1mil miles w/no majors, swears by this combination with a super 10 but hes otr

379Longhood
02-13-2010, 02:29 PM
definately FASS system on a ddec with a pitts power unit........... I've got a customer that has several units over 1mil miles w/no majors, swears by this combination with a super 10 but hes otr

Welcome to the forum , :welcome (I'm "Oldiron" on the heavy eqpt site) glad to see you made it

absolutediesel
02-14-2010, 04:33 AM
:tada yes and thanks again for the invite. been on this site once looking at some 6.0L stuff but didnt notice the HD portions:bang
looking forward to helping where I can

heath454
02-25-2010, 01:24 AM
well sounds like dd14 knows a little bit about what he is talking about

SmokinCAT
02-25-2010, 03:47 AM
:bang

ynot
02-25-2010, 05:48 AM
well sounds like dd14 knows a little bit about what he is talking about

:bang

They both do, and there both damn knowledgeable on many other things. I just caught this thing and ya'll both have very good points, tho reference differs. I know who I trust, and who's points have valor, and why. I also know that with all the insite you have into the base rail pressures (yes, anything that feeds from a "common" distributorless pump is common rail, period. Common means "one", and it doesn't have six fuel lines...) you'de know why lower pressures were better with a certain computer map and speed at that base timing, but changed for some reason, but this looks like another one of those that should quietly die. It could go on, and much deaper than anyone else cares to have that deap of an insite too, or, when it comes to just bein pissed and bashing as all these turn to, it gets killed with no "retrobution" feelings anywhere. I'de make closing arguments, or not, and chill, cause it seems to be too easy to kill off the good guys anymore... (or try, tho it is interesting to see the balanced passives battle :knight :thumbsup. I'm in a club now. Cool!! :) )

SmokinCAT
02-25-2010, 09:25 AM
I was just banging my head cause I thought it was dead. :happymugs

DD14
02-25-2010, 01:20 PM
Hey Tony at least we are in good company....right!?

DD14
02-25-2010, 01:35 PM
I was just banging my head cause I thought it was dead. :happymugs

Hope it does not bother you that much.

ynot
02-25-2010, 05:00 PM
I was just banging my head cause I thought it was dead. :happymugs

Hey Tony at least we are in good company....right!?

:tada :happymugs

heath454
02-26-2010, 12:47 PM
ok well we put the truck backon the bullydog high horsepower setting and it runs great except it still wants to surge at parcial throttle acceleration and buly dog doesnt seem to concerned about figureing out why any ideas

heath454
03-03-2010, 07:31 AM
they are working on it but nothing yet

1-5-3-6-2-4
05-15-2010, 07:18 AM
Hi there. 1st post new member, little detroit info for you. seems no one has actually touched on it.

the full fuel injector calibration code for DDEC III/IV is 75. don't worry about whats on the solenoid or -10 from it or anything like that. set all six to 75 and your done.

if you want to get technical with the injectors and tune them. you'll want to get hooked up to a DDDL program. read the injector response times. note each one. mark the lowest response time (in milliseconds). what you want to do now is tune each solenoid down to match the fastest recorded. to do that you, lap the aluminum spacer between the solenoid and the injector body. the thinker that block gets the faster the solenoid response times.

you want to be under 1 millisecond. for all. and as balanced as possible.