3406a help [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: 3406a help


wkxpress
11-16-2009, 01:01 PM
i am planning an inframe for my engine, (with ceramic and teflon coated pistons) and i need a good set of high flow injectors and some pump mods. i was thinking that i can make up for my lack of a charge air cooler with water methanol injection system (chemical intercooling). my engine is 30years old and i cant read any id tags on it so i really dont know what to do about this. if the inframe kit is the same as a 3406b can i just order a 425hp kit and have the good pistons and compression ratio? any advice would be nice

379Longhood
11-16-2009, 03:46 PM
i am planning an inframe for my engine, (with ceramic and teflon coated pistons) and i need a good set of high flow injectors and some pump mods. i was thinking that i can make up for my lack of a charge air cooler with water methanol injection system (chemical intercooling). my engine is 30years old and i cant read any id tags on it so i really dont know what to do about this. if the inframe kit is the same as a 3406b can i just order a 425hp kit and have the good pistons and compression ratio? any advice would be nice

the serial number should be stamped on the block somewhere near the tag, but you may as well wait for Tony's answers and get it right the first time:happymugs

wkxpress
11-16-2009, 04:33 PM
i did get the serial number off the block. 92u27127

SledMan
11-16-2009, 07:48 PM
You already have the same exact pistons as in most 7FB and 4MG 3406B engines which are 14.5 compression ratio. But, why spend this money on an engine you won't get much power from? The A engine was never a powerhouse. Sure, you could slam your finger in the door before you drive it, and it would do ok, but that's it.

The pump has small barrells and plungers, and just does'nt push much fuel. The block won't accept a B pump, so the best thing to do is ditch it for a B or better yet, a C model. The reason I would go with a C is for durability reasons. And as far as teflon and ceramic coatings are concerned, don't waste your money.

Find you a good running C model, throw in a set of 10R-1439 cylinder packs. These consist of 14.6 comp ratio steel top pistons. Or you can seperately buy 125-8869 crowns, and 130-0241 skirts. Drill out the holes for the oil cooler nozzles to 7/16 and get the 277-3076 double nozzle oil coolers. Install a set of OR-8785 nozzles, and a 198123 B/M turbo and enjoy the amazing power and fuel mileage. You will push 38-40 lbs of boost, usually 195 water temp, and no higher than 1050 EGT's, and 6-6.5 MPG. All with spec. fuel settings. Turn the FLS and FTS out two rounds and then enjoy installing a 2050 fl/lb clutch.

I have built this combination on 3 of my trucks....one of which is JWAC. PM me and I can give you all the info you need.

SmokinCAT
11-17-2009, 08:58 AM
Why run steel top pistons in a motor meant for the street?


To the OP, you have an A model that doesnt have an air cooler on it, just wondering what the factory rating is on it, and as far as the water/methanol you would have to have a rather large tank and a pretty good pump to supply enough to make a difference.

I would suggest finding a blown up motor that has one it and do the conversion, or depending on what kind of truck your working with maybe an air to air set up, if there is no room for that, it kinda excludes the C model motor anyways.

If this thing is being built for the road, I would just rebuild it to a 400 and tune the pump a little and call it a day.:peelout

wkxpress
11-17-2009, 12:29 PM
it will be a street engine and i only want the water kit for the cooling efect, not a power adder, as i dont have room for an air to air. ceramic coating is the way to go. i have been building engines for years, just not cats(first one). less friction = more power. i am not trying to build a fire breathing monster out of an a model. just 500hp or so. i kinda figured that if i have to pull this motor, i wanna replace it with a kta cummins. tough to agrue with 19 liters and 800 hp

SmokinCAT
11-17-2009, 02:13 PM
Maybe so, but for the money that you will spend on finding the KTA, I would go the route Sledman suggested, unless you have one on hand. Without any type of cooler 500 will be pretty tough, but if you find a WJAC to put on it you shold be able to get that with just a little tuning, do you know if your motor is a direct injection or indirect.

wkxpress
11-17-2009, 06:05 PM
i do have an after cooler on the engine, but no intercooler. can someone look up the serial number and tell me if i have a di or idi? i cant find any info on tha web

SledMan
11-18-2009, 12:00 AM
Does it have glow plugs? If you pre-heat to start, it's a IDI, or pre combustion engine. And yes, according to Cat's SIS, it is a DI engine......at least that's the way it came.

ynot
11-18-2009, 12:15 AM
You already have the same exact pistons as in most 7FB and 4MG 3406B engines which are 14.5 compression ratio. But, why spend this money on an engine you won't get much power from? The A engine was never a powerhouse. Sure, you could slam your finger in the door before you drive it, and it would do ok, but that's it.

The pump has small barrells and plungers, and just does'nt push much fuel. The block won't accept a B pump, so the best thing to do is ditch it for a B or better yet, a C model. The reason I would go with a C is for durability reasons. And as far as teflon and ceramic coatings are concerned, don't waste your money.

Find you a good running C model, throw in a set of 10R-1439 cylinder packs. These consist of 14.6 comp ratio steel top pistons. Or you can seperately buy 125-8869 crowns, and 130-0241 skirts. Drill out the holes for the oil cooler nozzles to 7/16 and get the 277-3076 double nozzle oil coolers. Install a set of OR-8785 nozzles, and a 198123 B/M turbo and enjoy the amazing power and fuel mileage. You will push 38-40 lbs of boost, usually 195 water temp, and no higher than 1050 EGT's, and 6-6.5 MPG. All with spec. fuel settings. Turn the FLS and FTS out two rounds and then enjoy installing a 2050 fl/lb clutch.

I have built this combination on 3 of my trucks....one of which is JWAC. PM me and I can give you all the info you need.
Well, I feel I have done a fine job of not touching any of your posts, nor do I care to, as most of the info is very correct, hence my lack of appearance on the board. Something of this magnitude needs addressed tho.

An "A" block is a B block, which is why those two huge holes and 2:00 feeder holes are so close together where the pump mounts. Change covers and it is a B. This is the third time this has been addressed in the last six months, apparently to no avail...

The rest, again, I will not go near :damnit

SledMan
11-18-2009, 12:34 AM
Hey hey...slow down!!!! I base my experiences from actual hands on...OK? I had 3 3406A 92U series engines. They had ONE.....ONE set of oil inlet and outlet holes for the fuel pump. A B pump absolutely WOULD NOT MOUNT on my A engines!!!! Sure, everything else will fit, including the timing cover. But, a B pump would not line up with the oil holes on my A blocks.

I'm sorry I stepped in and pissed off the king of Cats on here. Please don't think I was wanting to step on anyones toes. I guess I have walked on your turf, and for that I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I never claimed to know all. If you remember, I have asked you for advice on my MBN engine. I have owned and done repairs and upgrades on everything from A engines up to the 6NZ. The MBN is the first bridge I owned....hence I asked you for advice.

Again, Mr. The King, sorry for stepping on your turf. I don't think I steered anyone in the wrong direction with my ideas. Like I said, everything I talk about on here, I have done. Tried and tested.

To all reading....sorry for stepping in wher I'm not wanted.

SledMan
11-18-2009, 01:23 AM
YNOT, I started thinking about what you said. I have one A 92U block left in my shop. It indeed has one set of oil holes for the pump. They are almost in the middle of the block. Maybe you are confused with a B block? The B and C blocks have two sets of holes. Maybe an A pump will bolt to a B block? Not that anyone would want to. LOL.

Like I said, not trying to argue, I have tried this in the past. I just couldn't make it work.

wkxpress
11-18-2009, 01:34 AM
hey ynot am i to understand you correctly that i can change my timing cover and injection pump and that converts my a to a b? i have read all the stuff i can find about 3406a's but not enough info that i can find. i do not have glow plugs.
scott

ynot
11-18-2009, 02:16 AM
This is why I debated even posting. Yes, we talked and got along very well. Yes, I've read most your stuff, and like myself, some is completely wrong. No, I didn't comment as it wasn't a big deal and not ness. Just check one thing. Is your 92U under 92U02900? Pre Cups weren't mentioned. And congrats on all your stuff and builds, but in over 1700 overhauls of every design and more than 50 1000hp engines, do you think I've ever used a stripped "A" block for a B? Yes Sir I have.

And please, since I just 12 gauged my 21" flatscreen thru the back wall having nothing now but the laptop, can we refrain from the God and Mr. King and all this sht. I knew not to post damn it. You do a great job man. keep it up.........................

Peace/Out>

wkxpress
11-18-2009, 02:37 AM
yes its s/n is 90u27127. so hook me up man, what can i really do here? i am a very good wrench but i know very little about cats. all i have done is figure out the basics that all engines have in common.

SmokinCAT
11-18-2009, 07:30 AM
yes its s/n is 90u27127. so hook me up man, what can i really do here? i am a very good wrench but i know very little about cats. all i have done is figure out the basics that all engines have in common.

Best bet is to handle it by PMs with Ynot, that is if you can get a response.

If you got an aftercooler thats all your gonna get, same as an intercooler, just different terminology.

359kool
11-18-2009, 12:42 PM
:mafia1:This is why I debated even posting. Yes, we talked and got along very well. Yes, I've read most your stuff, and like myself, some is completely wrong. No, I didn't comment as it wasn't a big deal and not ness. Just check one thing. Is your 92U under 92U02900? Pre Cups weren't mentioned. And congrats on all your stuff and builds, but in over 1700 overhauls of every design and more than 50 1000hp engines, do you think I've ever used a stripped "A" block for a B? Yes Sir I have.

And please, since I just 12 gauged my 21" flatscreen thru the back wall having nothing now but the laptop, can we refrain from the God and Mr. King and all this sht. I knew not to post damn it. You do a great job man. keep it up.........................

Peace/Out>

Dammit boy, so you just pulled down on that sob with some birdshot eh? :mafia1:

I don't really believe that anybody intends to aggravate you, or just waste your time Tony, but I learn more anyway when you straighten these people out.. :wedgie
Those like me who just thought they knew something.. :o

There's no doubt about it man, you're teaching the class, and anybody that doesn't appreciate it should have to go stand in front of your monitor next time.. :woohoo

The majority of us here are just truck drivers though, and when this happens, the horseschit levels are gonna be way above the normal average.. :bathroom :point

Maybe this will ease the tension aroound here a little anyway.. I always get nervous when you are angry.. :wiggle:

:buddies:gphug:happymugs:

SledMan
11-18-2009, 02:53 PM
Who aggravated who? Who fired the first shot? The man purely told me I was wrong, when I knew damn well I wasn't. He's not the only one who knows anything about Cat's. I was simply giving a little insight on some of my experiences...that's all.

Ynot, as far as the serial number goes, it is 92U-10868, and it is not a precombustion engine. Hey, I stand corrected. If they changed the A model block to accept a B pump, I obviously didn't have one. My apologies. Please overlook my stupidity.

Les2
11-18-2009, 05:31 PM
He's talking bare blocks being the same, just change the front cover and plate that bolts to the block.

SledMan
11-18-2009, 07:04 PM
My damn A block and a B block are not the F'CKING same! A B pump WOULD NOT FIT my A block. Why am I so pissed off? I tried it! Changed the front cover, plate, gears, etc. Got down to the pump, and it WOULD NOT MEET THE OIL PORTS!!!! This was years ago, and it still pisses me off. A lot of wasted time and money.

I simply was telling whoever that a B pump would'nt fit an A block. Maybe his will....mine didn't. During my thrashing from Mr. the King....he politely told me I was wrong. How would you react?

I'm done with this pissing contest!!! I am not going to stand by and be told I am wrong, when I know damn well I am not.

Les2
11-18-2009, 11:22 PM
My damn A block and a B block are not the F'CKING same! A B pump WOULD NOT FIT my A block. Why am I so pissed off? I tried it! Changed the front cover, plate, gears, etc. Got down to the pump, and it WOULD NOT MEET THE OIL PORTS!!!! This was years ago, and it still pisses me off. A lot of wasted time and money.

I simply was telling whoever that a B pump would'nt fit an A block. Maybe his will....mine didn't. During my thrashing from Mr. the King....he politely told me I was wrong. How would you react?

I'm done with this pissing contest!!! I am not going to stand by and be told I am wrong, when I know damn well I am not.

Relax, I thought you was misunderstanding what tony was trying to tell you.:thumbsup

black_dog106
11-19-2009, 01:15 AM
No great Cat words here, but everyone take a little break. No need for hair pulling contests. This heavy section of the forum is getting weaker and weaker. Lets not ruin what is left to it.....:happymugs

C-16 Kiwi
11-19-2009, 06:50 AM
Sledman has done nothing wrong keep up the good work.....all getting to catty for me here I think I will stick to the other forum where everyone can have there say without getting *****y :peelout

359kool
11-19-2009, 04:22 PM
Found some information this morning and thought it might be useful in this thread.. :roflol:
Sorry about the timing Sledman, but its better late than never.. :roflol:

I've been reading threads on this site for a long time now, and I don't recall Tony ever giving out bad information, especially pertaining to mechanical Caterpillars.. :haha

After reading over this 1996 Cat news article on SIS using the serial number Sledman provided earlier, it seems to me that Tony knew what he was talking all along.. :haha

The reason the charts and diagram are so small here is the format that this stuff was in originally makes it difficult to post..
You may have to zoom zoom in little bit to see them Sledman = :bubba

:roflol:
-----------------------------------------------------------------



Product: TRUCK ENGINE
Model: 3406 TRUCK ENGINE 92U
Configuration: undefined

Truck Engine News
1996/02/26 Media Number -SEBD6675-00 Publication Date -26/02/1996 Date Updated -26/02/1996


New Material Used In O-Rings And Optional New Block Side Cover Replacement{1201}
SMCS - 1201

3406, 3406B, 3406C and 3406E Truck Engines

Description of Change: A new material is being used for all the straight thread O-ring plugs used on both sides of the cylinder block. The new O-ring material has a longer service life than the former O-ring.

On the 3406, 3406B and 3406C an optional new, stronger cover can be used whenever the fuel injection pump is removed if there is an indication of leakage. The optional new cover is made of steel and has a groove for an O-ring instead of the former aluminum cover and gasket.


Adaptable To: Chart A identifies the new and former straight thread O-rings and Chart B identifies the new and former cover and gasket/seal.


23259



23260



23258




Typical view of the straight thread O-ring Seals (1), and the production aluminum cover (3) and the production gasket (2).




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright 1993 - 2009 Caterpillar Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Private Network For SIS Licensees.
Thu Nov 19 07:31:57 CST 2009

359kool
11-19-2009, 04:36 PM
Try this again, those links are part of my evidence dang it! :roflol:

SledMan
11-19-2009, 06:05 PM
The cover you are referring to has nothing to do with mounting a B pump on an A block. That is the cover for inspection of the liners.....I assume. Look at the parts diagram. See the two sets of oil supply and return holes on the side of the block? Every B or C block I have or have seen have these two sets of holes. Every A block I have had or seen only have one set....towards the middle of the block. Meaning a B pump will not fit on an A block......or anyone I have seen or had.

This has gotten way out of hand. If sometime Cat changed the A block to accomodate a B pump, I have never seen or owned one. The only reason I got upset was the way he worded his explanation. He simply said, and I quote..." An A block is a B block". Well, in my case, an A block, IS NOT a B block. I didn't want the man to go through the same trouble I did, by changing over front covers, and gears, only to find out the pump WOULD NOT FIT!!! Sure, it will bolt to the timing cover, but the oil supply and return ports will not line up....by several inches.

359kool
11-19-2009, 09:14 PM
:bdh :point

SledMan
11-19-2009, 11:10 PM
Negatory there Ghost Rider.....that's the right side of the block.

SledMan
11-19-2009, 11:18 PM
Does anyone other than me and Mr. The King notice there is only ONE SET OF OIL SUPPLY HOLES??? Now I will say again...a B pump WILL NOT WORK ON AN A BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

A 3406 B and C block has two sets of these oil supply holes...an A block does not.....or at least three of mine, and every other one I have seen.

I'm done, I rest my case.

dicky
11-19-2009, 11:51 PM
quote... that is the cover for inspection of the liners .. i assume.

now that is funny !

SledMan
11-20-2009, 12:38 AM
Sorry, I was referring to the one on the other side, where the oil cooler bonnett bolts to the block

wkxpress
11-20-2009, 12:47 AM
Does anyone other than me and Mr. The King notice there is only ONE SET OF OIL SUPPLY HOLES??? Now I will say again...a B pump WILL NOT WORK ON AN A BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

A 3406 B and C block has two sets of these oil supply holes...an A block does not.....or at least three of mine, and every other one I have seen.

I'm done, I rest my case.

ya suppose i could put oil lines to the pump and to the block, since they dont line up? would that fix the problem?

SledMan
11-20-2009, 05:04 PM
I seriously considered doing just that. I guess you could weld up the holes and drill and tap lines for it, but I wouldn't recommend it though. The bottom of the pump is supported here also. Just find you a good B or C block. Or if you've got $$$$ to spend, find a Bosch P pump with a Cat adapter. They flow serious fuel. prob too much $$$$ for a street ride though.