Big Cam III - PT320 to Formula 400 [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: Big Cam III - PT320 to Formula 400


6V-92TTA
12-13-2009, 10:09 AM
On a BC3, what needs to be changed to convert a PT320 or NTC-350 to 400HP?

Is the turbo different? Are the injectors bigger? Or is it just a matter of cranking up the pump?

Thanks.

FRANKIE
12-13-2009, 12:28 PM
Call your cummins dealer, give him the cpl on engine tag, and they should be able to tell you what you need to change it. I changed a bc 3, 300 hp to 400 hp, i did full inframe with new cpl, new turbo rebuilt injectors and pump to correct specs.

ynot
12-13-2009, 02:41 PM
On a BC3, what needs to be changed to convert a PT320 or NTC-350 to 400HP?

Is the turbo different? Are the injectors bigger? Or is it just a matter of cranking up the pump?

Thanks.

Your 350 will change over much easier to the 400. Have a CPL?

6V-92TTA
12-14-2009, 05:26 AM
I don't have a cpl, I'm looking at trucks on ebay. What is the difference between a 350 & a 400 then? Do they have different injectors or turbo?

Thanks.

SmokinCAT
12-14-2009, 06:28 AM
I think for the most part it is timing, turbos would mostly be the same until the later model years. The injectors could be different, but without the CPL# it is a long shot on guessing correctly.

6V-92TTA
12-14-2009, 12:33 PM
Where do you find out what cpl has what parts?

SledMan
12-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Where do you find out what cpl has what parts?

If you don't have the CPL, get the serial number stamped in the block, on the drivers side, towards the rear. It's a 7 digit number...and call Cummins and they can get you the CPL.

SmokinCAT
12-15-2009, 02:33 AM
Where do you find out what cpl has what parts?

Cummins, and that is if they will work with you, no matter what if you get a choice go with the 400.

Johnp3
12-15-2009, 09:01 PM
The NTC was a terrible piece of **** they were hard to start Smoked white, forever, They were one step below a 444. To find out what parts came with which CPL Complete Parts List we had a book, It tells you which heads kits injectors turbo Cam most everything If you have the CPL of what you have and what you want and go to Cummins they can tell you whether you old parts are a core, and prices. They may not be as helpful over the phone. Just a thought!

SmokinCAT
12-16-2009, 12:25 AM
The NTC was a terrible piece of **** they were hard to start Smoked white, forever, They were one step below a 444. To find out what parts came with which CPL Complete Parts List we had a book, It tells you which heads kits injectors turbo Cam most everything If you have the CPL of what you have and what you want and go to Cummins they can tell you whether you old parts are a core, and prices. They may not be as helpful over the phone. Just a thought!

You do know that the NTC moniker covers small cams all the way up to the BC3, it seems to me that anything after the 676cpl BC4 would be considered junk, which arent considered NTCs. Hard to say that a motor that is capable of 6.5MPG is a POS even if it does smoke a bit when its cold.

ynot
12-16-2009, 12:43 AM
You do know that the NTC moniker covers small cams all the way up to the BC3, it seems to me that anything after the 676cpl BC4 would be considered junk, which arent considered NTCs. Hard to say that a motor that is capable of 6.5MPG is a POS even if it does smoke a bit when its cold.

:beer Whoops, uh, :whs !! NTC's were the most abound motors made, beating the other two in trucks about 4 to 1. There were a few good CPL's after the 676, tho that 400 was the most sought after build there was. Hellofa motor. CPL gives everything listed plus injector (@ flow), but didn't give a piston kit number. Just the piston, as the kit could have 40/20's. Swapping CPL's with the "brown book" was a dream. No SIS (or fiche and SIMS in those days) to mod arrangement numbers :rock

Johnp3
12-16-2009, 12:45 AM
Can I ask why you want to do this? If I was going to put a Cummins in a truck for longevity and Mileage I would do an early N14 460 and then derate to 430. It gives you great Jake's and good mileage. But if you have your mind made up, what year truck are you putting it in? Just asked because you can have licencing problems on a re-power if you go back in years, old engine in a newer truck. Just a thought!

ynot
12-16-2009, 02:29 AM
Can I ask why you want to do this? If I was going to put a Cummins in a truck for longevity and Mileage I would do an early N14 460 and then derate to 430. It gives you great Jake's and good mileage. But if you have your mind made up, what year truck are you putting it in? Just asked because you can have licencing problems on a re-power if you go back in years, old engine in a newer truck. Just a thought!

And again, a good thought at that!! Digressing in the Midwest is easy. Leaving fly-over land either direction is nothing but probs, and the diesel cops may just shoot ya :nunu:

Lowboy
12-16-2009, 02:56 AM
The NTC was a terrible piece of **** they were hard to start Smoked white, forever, They were one step below a 444.

Huh? Looks like you're way over your head. The NTC came in many different combinations. I put an NTC in a water truck timed at 29 with lower HP pistons (higher compression) and it starts below freezing, no assist and very little smoke.

One of the best old Cummins motors out there..

6V-92TTA
12-16-2009, 03:42 AM
Can I ask why you want to do this? If I was going to put a Cummins in a truck for longevity and Mileage I would do an early N14 460 and then derate to 430. It gives you great Jake's and good mileage.

You are talking about an electronic engine right? The reason I ask about tickling up a BC3 is because the trucks I'm looking at buying have a either BC3 or NT86 Power Torque 320's in them (PT320 was a derated NTC-350 & sold at 300, 320 or 350HP ratings) From what info I have gathered, it looks like the difference is injectors & compression for sure, but cam I don't know.

Are they a POS? Originally yes. When new, BC2 & BC3 had a horrible reputation for building up carbon around the ring lands & then eating oil. They would start eating oil from just 100,000 kms. At the same time Cat's 3406B cylinders would last 1.2 to 1.6 million clicks easily, they just have the annoying thing of needing new bigends every 400,000km. After BC3, Cummins finally cam up with something that would last as long as Cat. I'm Australian BTW, so all of the above might night apply to what happens in the USA.

I'd REALLY like one of Tony's 3406C with 3406B injection, but I only want something mild because it's going to be my work truck, so a Cummins is as good as anything at 400+HP (I'd really like an 8V-92TA, but who can afford the fuel?)

Where do you guys get your CPL info from?

379Longhood
12-16-2009, 03:43 AM
The NTC was a terrible piece of **** they were hard to start Smoked white, forever, They were one step below a 444. To find out what parts came with which CPL Complete Parts List we had a book, It tells you which heads kits injectors turbo Cam most everything If you have the CPL of what you have and what you want and go to Cummins they can tell you whether you old parts are a core, and prices. They may not be as helpful over the phone. Just a thought!

Are you thinking about the NTA 400:fan they fit that description . NTC 400 cam3 and early cam 4s were good engines tons of jake power if you knew how to drive it. and lots of them still running

6V-92TTA
12-16-2009, 04:11 AM
What's the difference between the 'Big Cam IV' & the 'New Big Cam IV'?

fest777
12-16-2009, 08:22 AM
cpl means control parts list, same as arrangment numbers on cat motors, never heard of complete parts list ?,and as far as a ntc being a p.o.s., the NH to the NTC was proly the most used and reliable engine ever too see the U.S. highways, ntc 335 was the mainstay of the road for years then the ntc 350 evolved , its was a 335 with an aftercooler, so far as the ntc being a P.O.S. your out of your mind . maybe the bc4 low flow was a pain , lots of problems with the cooling systems and lower liner seals and the MVT mechanical variable timing that was one of cummins more un brilliant ideas

fest777
12-16-2009, 08:44 AM
cpl books were purchased at the cummins dealer, their updated every year. as far as i know there is no old and new bc4 that i know of, there were some made in s america if i member right brazillian , an old trick was too take the low flow water rail and chuck it , then replace it with a bc1- 2 or 3 water mani and change the radiator out and no more cooling probs., the bc4 made excellent power and torque the 400 bc danced circles around the 8v92 430s and the ntc 475 twin turbo was one bad dude, 475 8v92s was not a push over either, just the cummins got better fuel mileage and had more torque

6V-92TTA
12-16-2009, 01:17 PM
cpl means control parts list, same as arrangment numbers on cat motors, never heard of complete parts list ?,and as far as a ntc being a p.o.s., the NH to the NTC was proly the most used and reliable engine ever too see the U.S. highways, ntc 335 was the mainstay of the road for years then the ntc 350 evolved , its was a 335 with an aftercooler, so far as the ntc being a P.O.S. your out of your mind . maybe the bc4 low flow was a pain , lots of problems with the cooling systems and lower liner seals and the MVT mechanical variable timing that was one of cummins more un brilliant ideas

cpl books were purchased at the cummins dealer, their updated every year. as far as i know there is no old and new bc4 that i know of, there were some made in s america if i member right brazillian , an old trick was too take the low flow water rail and chuck it , then replace it with a bc1- 2 or 3 water mani and change the radiator out and no more cooling probs., the bc4 made excellent power and torque the 400 bc danced circles around the 8v92 430s and the ntc 475 twin turbo was one bad dude, 475 8v92s was not a push over either, just the cummins got better fuel mileage and had more torque



I know what cpl means, but where can I read one?

You bought a new BC3 in 1981 and had no problems. Good for you!

I would hope that the NTC-475 would be better than the 475HP 8V-92TA, it's 10 years newer.

BC3 NTC-400 danced around 430HP 8V-92TA? Nope, they have the same torque.

BC4 NTC-400 danced around 430HP 8V-92TA? Yes! Because it does have much more torque & efficiency.

MVT sucks? Is that STC you are talking about?

Are BC3 400 injectors bigger than BC3 350 injectors?

SmokinCAT
12-16-2009, 01:51 PM
I know what cpl means, but where can I read one?

You bought a new BC3 in 1981 and had no problems. Good for you!

I would hope that the NTC-475 would be better than the 475HP 8V-92TA, it's 10 years newer.

BC3 NTC-400 danced around 430HP 8V-92TA? Nope, they have the same torque.

BC4 NTC-400 danced around 430HP 8V-92TA? Yes! Because it does have much more torque & efficiency.

MVT sucks? Is that STC you are talking about?

Are BC3 400 injectors bigger than BC3 350 injectors?

Is this from experience, or just from the numbers. I have owned a 475hp 8V-92 and it wouldnt hold a candle to the same year 400BC1 that replaced it, that all comes back to a v motor against a inline.


You would have to buy the CPL books from cummins, they arent just going to let you look a them coming in off of the street.

As was said before, an injector change, and some pump work will bump you up to the 400 parts, but until you change the timing to that of a true 400 you still just have a hopped up 350.

SmokinCAT
12-16-2009, 01:53 PM
:beer Whoops, uh, :whs !! NTC's were the most abound motors made, beating the other two in trucks about 4 to 1. There were a few good CPL's after the 676, tho that 400 was the most sought after build there was. Hellofa motor. CPL gives everything listed plus injector (@ flow), but didn't give a piston kit number. Just the piston, as the kit could have 40/20's. Swapping CPL's with the "brown book" was a dream. No SIS (or fiche and SIMS in those days) to mod arrangement numbers :rock

Here is your beer. :happymugs

How have things been going, you can PM if ya want.

snowman_w900
12-16-2009, 07:39 PM
like cody said, thats 8v92 wouldnt touch a a bigcam 400. they suck on any hill they come to. however,they might have SOUNDED like they could top a 400 bigcam with all the rpm and noise.

fest777
12-16-2009, 08:47 PM
its right in front of the air compressor on the accessory drive housing, runs up and down thin piece of aluminum strip, 475 cummins was out in the early 80S if i recall, first one i saw was on the first truck oval race scene may have been 80 or 81 , no there was no 10 years between them, almost sure of that but i could be wrong, stc was step timing injection, and yes 400 are normally flowed a little higher than 350s not all the time, bc400 some times are flow lower but more rail pressure ,thats what the cpl is all about what piston what injector what turbo what timing and the rest ,and the first 92 silvers were bad *** motors,far as torque being the same, depends the way there built look at the specs on those engines sometimes a 300 had more torque than a 370 so figure that out i never will

fest777
12-16-2009, 09:21 PM
if you want too read one i suggest looking on ebay or the library , miss understood your message i have an old one from 1989.if you have some cpl numbers i can scan them,my cpl book goes up to 5078,any way 92s and bc1 to 4 are motors of the past over .20 years on both of them ,seen a 92 about 5 months ago at the san onofre scale first one i noticed in a few years

black_dog106
12-16-2009, 10:02 PM
like cody said, thats 8v92 wouldnt touch a a bigcam 400. they suck on any hill they come to. however,they might have SOUNDED like they could top a 400 bigcam with all the rpm and noise.

if noise did the job, they would have pulled a locomotive backwards.....:happymugs

snowman_w900
12-17-2009, 01:00 AM
:whs lol, yes very true blackdog. smokin cat( cody) had one in a cabover ford 9000. if i remember right, it had a 8v92ta silver 475hp and with just a five inch straight pipe, it made her talk real loud. youd thought it was a 875hp by the way it sounded, lol.

SmokinCAT
12-17-2009, 02:34 AM
:whs lol, yes very true blackdog. smokin cat( cody) had one in a cabover ford 9000. if i remember right, it had a 8v92ta silver 475hp and with just a five inch straight pipe, it made her talk real loud. youd thought it was a 875hp by the way it sounded, lol.

I have never shifted so many times in my life as I did when I was hauling grain with that junk, Im glad it shifted like a car.:haha

PGM
12-17-2009, 08:41 AM
On a BC3, what needs to be changed to convert a PT320 or NTC-350 to 400HP?

Is the turbo different? Are the injectors bigger? Or is it just a matter of cranking up the pump?

Thanks.

What state are you in buddy ? I can point you to someone that will make it crack...

:)

6V-92TTA
12-20-2009, 07:34 AM
Is this from experience, or just from the numbers. I have owned a 475hp 8V-92 and it wouldnt hold a candle to the same year 400BC1 that replaced it, that all comes back to a v motor against a inline.

I have fleet experience. I know you're trying to yank my chain as there was no 475HP 8V-92TA when the 400 BC1 came out, they are 5 years apart. You are probably thinking of an old 8V-71N with advanced timing, those things did suck.


but until you change the timing to that of a true 400 you still just have a hopped up 350.

What's the difference in timing between the 350 & 400?

6V-92TTA
12-20-2009, 07:40 AM
What state are you in buddy ? I can point you to someone that will make it crack...

:)

Lismore, NSW. But I want to learn & DYI, not just pay someone. I'm wierd like that.

SmokinCAT
12-20-2009, 08:10 AM
I have fleet experience. I know you're trying to yank my chain as there was no 475HP 8V-92TA when the 400 BC1 came out, they are 5 years apart. You are probably thinking of an old 8V-71N with advanced timing, those things did suck.




What's the difference in timing between the 350 & 400?

The timing first, I believe the 350 is set at 65, and the 400s are like 72, Im not sure what those numbers actually stand for. I know it has alot to do with what cam key is used, and how many shims are put on the followers.


On the detroit, the truck was a 79 Ford CL9000 and had a silver 8V92 in it with a turbo, the BC1 in question is the truck in my signature, 79 KW K100 400BC1, both with 4.33 gears, the only difference was the trannies :thumbsup

Dont get me wrong the detroit would scream when it was by itself with no load, it just didnt like grossing 95,000.

6V-92TTA
12-20-2009, 09:21 AM
On the detroit, the truck was a 79 Ford CL9000 and had a silver 8V92 in it with a turbo

I'm guessing it didn't have 90cc injectors in it or it was poorly tuned. The first 8V-92T (1976-1979) were sold with 3 different size injectors, but when they added the aftercooler in 79, they just sold the one engine & set it to 365, 400+ or 435HP with the TT governor.

What gearboxes did they have?

SmokinCAT
12-20-2009, 11:57 AM
The ford had a 10spd double over, and the KW has an overdrive 13spd, Im not sure what the detroit had done to it, it would turn 3400rpm, but I dont recall it somking that much. We got it through some trading and just ran it for the short time we had the truck.

20RPM
12-20-2009, 01:16 PM
cpl means control parts list, same as arrangment numbers on cat motors, never heard of complete parts list ?,and as far as a ntc being a p.o.s., the NH to the NTC was proly the most used and reliable engine ever too see the U.S. highways, ntc 335 was the mainstay of the road for years then the ntc 350 evolved , its was a 335 with an aftercooler, so far as the ntc being a P.O.S. your out of your mind . maybe the bc4 low flow was a pain , lots of problems with the cooling systems and lower liner seals and the MVT mechanical variable timing that was one of cummins more un brilliant ideas
fest777 I have to agree with you, I am a cat dude but have owned and still own cummins currently a bc3 400 cpl 625 & bc4 350 cpl 840 super reliable over 2,000,000 mls on them and have inframe them with fp diesel parts and still run over 800,000 miles they might not have the balls of a stock cat but with a little twicking they do a hell of a job run FL to CA with 80,000 lbs of produce and I assure you that when that Cat pull in the truck stop I.ll be pulling in right after him. Don't be discurraged and if what you whant is a cummins get you one. There is no bad engine just just the right engine for the job you re going to do.

Mack427
12-20-2009, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=6V-92TTA;914246]You are talking about an electronic engine right?

NO N-14 Manual pump would be the way to go you will find most in the 370-430hp a manual 460 are rare, the ones in Case Ih Steiger still had the banjo aftercooler on a N-14, thats the set up I would prefer over the old Big Cam also nobody has mentioned it here the PT series had constant power, they pulled peak hp all the way down to around 13 or 1400 rpm, and was used in a off road or a on off road app. ie mixer truck, off road equipment

6V-92TTA
12-20-2009, 04:42 PM
3400rpm Series 92 = sounds pretty horrible to me & not exactly stock. What is a double OD 10 speed, some kind of Spicer?

The mechanical N14's that came after the 444 are very rare here, if people were specing a cheapie single trailer truck or rigid it would have been a PT320 or maybe a Fleet 370 or 400 (with the pace thing) OR if it's was roadtrain, the diehards would get a KTA-500. How much of the late/last N14 crank/rods/cylinders/heads can be fitted to the earlier N14's?

ynot
12-21-2009, 12:24 AM
3400rpm Series 92 = sounds pretty horrible to me & not exactly stock. What is a double OD 10 speed, some kind of Spicer?

The mechanical N14's that came after the 444 are very rare here, if people were specing a cheapie single trailer truck or rigid it would have been a PT320 or maybe a Fleet 370 or 400 (with the pace thing) OR if it's was roadtrain, the diehards would get a KTA-500. How much of the late/last N14 crank/rods/cylinders/heads can be fitted to the earlier N14's?

Mech N14's were a staple for two years... All the stuff you mentioned will swap, but check for main cap fretting before any N14 build... Merry Christmas y'all!!!!!! :salute

SmokinCAT
12-21-2009, 02:38 AM
3400rpm Series 92 = sounds pretty horrible to me & not exactly stock. What is a double OD 10 speed, some kind of Spicer?




Nope, just a roadranger with 2 overdrive gears, these days they sell some trannies that are set up this way, but the one in that ford had the top 2 gears turned around on the shaft, it would run almost 90mph in 9th and who knows how fast in 10th, going that fast in a cabover gets kinda hairy, all with 4.33 gears, my KW however will only top out around 75mph.

6V-92TTA
12-21-2009, 11:07 AM
"check for main cap fretting before any N14 build"

Thanks Tony, that is the only 'real' problem I have heard about the old 855. Any idea what causes it?

"these days they sell some trannies that are set up this way, but the one in that ford had the top 2 gears turned around on the shaft"

I'm guessing that you start with either an RT or RTO-12510 for this, what gears do you turn around & what ratios do you end up with?

What boxes do they sell these days that are like that?

MVT mechanical variable timing that was one of cummins more un brilliant ideas

I still want to hear about MVT, what models did it come in (what years?). I've never heard of it, is it anything like STC or something completely different?

ynot
12-21-2009, 03:31 PM
"check for main cap fretting before any N14 build"

Thanks Tony, that is the only 'real' problem I have heard about the old 855. Any idea what causes it? The design of having bearing thrust washers with cut-outs in the bearings for thrust, instead of bearing tabs. Too much material was removed from the block for the washer cut-outs, leaving only 40% of surface material to mate the cap to.

"these days they sell some trannies that are set up this way, but the one in that ford had the top 2 gears turned around on the shaft"

I'm guessing that you start with either an RT or RTO-12510 for this, what gears do you turn around & what ratios do you end up with?

What boxes do they sell these days that are like that?



I still want to hear about MVT, what models did it come in (what years?). I've never heard of it, is it anything like STC or something completely different? Mechanical Variable Timing was an actual lever that rolled the followers in and out to advance and retard cam timing. It was "stand alone" governor actuated. STC's are oil controlled advance to the injectors. Neither worked worth a damn...

SmokinCAT
12-22-2009, 06:48 AM
Im not sure what the gearing ended up being in that certain transmission, it was done when we got it. I looked through the eaton info that I have, and it looks like there werent not very many models like that from the factory, it looks like there were only 2 models of the older trannies that got it, and both were 13spds.

They are listed as RTOO/RTOOF 11613, and a 14613, they have 3 overdrive gears: .85, .73, and .62, being 11th, 12th, and 13th gears in the box.

I do remember hearing that if done the transmission should be a 125 series, and Im sure someone will confirm but I dont think the later ones will stand it due to the bearing design.

fest777
12-23-2009, 02:52 AM
ok if i memba the mvt timing was retarded until the air pressure built up too over 60 psi ,it would smoke like crazy till then, as air comes up the timing would advance and smoke use normally cleared up, cummins built a cam follower assembly that was linked together , normally you have 3 individual cam follower housings, a oil and air piston would move too actuate the the cam flowers , cant remember if the flowers moved in or out , same way when you time a cummins ,shim follower out (away from block you get hotter timing) there was a gear segment that would break also ,this was all according too an old friend terry mustelle from m&t injection in so cal he passed away , he was a real good kt mechanix and bc man too, does any bodt remember big terry in irwindale ca?

fest777
12-23-2009, 03:07 AM
mvt started around 80 or 82 up till around bc4 maybe 87 or later, it was bc only that i know of, the new vta903 the military uses is variable timing, its putting out over 700 hp with 1,200 ft lbs torque, not bad for a boat anchor is it

PGM
12-23-2009, 12:54 PM
What is a double OD 10 speed, some kind of Spicer?


Closest thing we got out here is those god awfull RTLO14710's, "Super 10's" i think they called em.

A couple of manufacturers, tried them in the early 90's but the they sucked baaad, and they stopped speccing them.

I had one in a 94 Mack Superliner, behind a detroit series 60. The trans made the truck a dog, too big a gap in the gears, and especially a giant gap to top gear.

Nothing less than 18 gears for me nowadays.

bigdog12
12-23-2009, 11:08 PM
Everyone I talked to said the same things about the variable timing,for some reason alot of people around here are looking for them now and paying good prices for cores.Anyone know what they are doing?Sorry didnt mean to be hyjacking the thread.

SmokinCAT
12-24-2009, 12:38 AM
I believe they are doing away with the automatic control, and controlling it by a variable air switch, prolly for performance application.

special-k
12-25-2009, 02:23 AM
Just out of curiosity where does a 1990 formula 365 fit in. I'm not 100% that they were called formula's but I know they were 365 hp and seemed to work well. On one of my early drivivg jobs I ran one for 4 years or so. At the end it would seem to load up at idle.(we pumped off liquid tanker trailers so they would be at high idle for an hour or so) They also smoked quite a bit in the cold when first fired up even with a 2010 Webasto and had that Cummins lope until it was warmed up fully. It also had a a habit of picking up 400 rpm so you had to be careful not bump up the idle too far at first or it would be roaring away @1500 rpm when you came back in 10 min.

PGM
12-25-2009, 04:44 AM
Just out of curiosity where does a 1990 formula 365 fit in. I'm not 100% that they were called formula's but I know they were 365 hp and seemed to work well. On one of my early drivivg jobs I ran one for 4 years or so. At the end it would seem to load up at idle.(we pumped off liquid tanker trailers so they would be at high idle for an hour or so) They also smoked quite a bit in the cold when first fired up even with a 2010 Webasto and had that Cummins lope until it was warmed up fully. It also had a a habit of picking up 400 rpm so you had to be careful not bump up the idle too far at first or it would be roaring away @1500 rpm when you came back in 10 min.

A 365 is a Big Cam 4 engine with STC (Stepped Timing Control).

The 444 was an STC as well.

I had a 400 STC and it smoked like a biatch when cold as well, and when cold it sounded like it was about to throw a rod till it warmed up.

:)

:)

6V-92TTA
12-26-2009, 10:43 AM
mvt started around 80 or 82 up till around bc4 maybe 87 or later, it was bc only that i know of, the new vta903 the military uses is variable timing, its putting out over 700 hp with 1,200 ft lbs torque, not bad for a boat anchor is it

Allright, I reckon MVT would make it a Big Cam 4, STC would make it New Big Cam 4 & mechanical N14. I pretty sure we never had MVT in Australia, we had something called NT86, which was BC3 with all the updates, then N14/NT88.

Tony, I though STC was OK, but only AFTER they fixed the bugs, does it still suck with updated pieces?

6V-92TTA
12-26-2009, 10:53 AM
Closest thing we got out here is those god awfull RTLO14710's, "Super 10's" i think they called em.

A couple of manufacturers, tried them in the early 90's but the they sucked baaad, and they stopped speccing them.

I had one in a 94 Mack Superliner, behind a detroit series 60. The trans made the truck a dog, too big a gap in the gears, and especially a giant gap to top gear.

Nothing less than 18 gears for me nowadays.

Super 10 is a wierd box, it's a 3 speed with range change & a 35% underdrive splitter. When you go from 6th to 7th, you have a range change & the splitter changing at the same time & sometimes you just get neutral instead.

Were they cheaper than a 13 speed?

6V-92TTA
12-26-2009, 11:06 AM
Im not sure what the gearing ended up being in that certain transmission, it was done when we got it. I looked through the eaton info that I have, and it looks like there werent not very many models like that from the factory, it looks like there were only 2 models of the older trannies that got it, and both were 13spds.

They are listed as RTOO/RTOOF 11613, and a 14613, they have 3 overdrive gears: .85, .73, and .62, being 11th, 12th, and 13th gears in the box.

I do remember hearing that if done the transmission should be a 125 series, and Im sure someone will confirm but I dont think the later ones will stand it due to the bearing design.

The RTOO 13-speed was a B ratio 9-speed overdrive with an overdrive splitter, so the top 3 gears are overdive 8th, direct 9th & overdrive 9th & they all go ning ning ning & you love the noise or hate it. :peelout

PGM
12-27-2009, 02:53 PM
Super 10 is a wierd box, it's a 3 speed with range change & a 35% underdrive splitter. When you go from 6th to 7th, you have a range change & the splitter changing at the same time & sometimes you just get neutral instead.

Were they cheaper than a 13 speed?

Yup, way cheaper, which is whey they seemed to pop up in fleets and bargain basement models.

From memory, Fleetsaver LTS Louisvilles, and really popular in CHR Macks for some reason.

People just didnt like them, so they stopped trying to sell them.

From about 1992-1995 was pretty much when they tried to sell them.

Strangely enough, 9 speeds are more popular than those stinkin 10 speeders...

:)

LOG HAULER
12-30-2009, 03:55 AM
On a BC3, what needs to be changed to convert a PT320 or NTC-350 to 400HP?

Is the turbo different? Are the injectors bigger? Or is it just a matter of cranking up the pump?

Thanks.


If you want a stout BC 400 build it to CPL 625 timming should be set at 0.70 fuel code for the 625 pump is 4114 i may be off 400 injectors are larger than 350's....if you need more info pm me

LOG HAULER
12-30-2009, 03:56 AM
The NTC was a terrible piece of **** they were hard to start Smoked white, forever, They were one step below a 444. To find out what parts came with which CPL Complete Parts List we had a book, It tells you which heads kits injectors turbo Cam most everything If you have the CPL of what you have and what you want and go to Cummins they can tell you whether you old parts are a core, and prices. They may not be as helpful over the phone. Just a thought!


Have you bumped your head.....one of the best engines ever made!

LOG HAULER
12-30-2009, 03:57 AM
You do know that the NTC moniker covers small cams all the way up to the BC3, it seems to me that anything after the 676cpl BC4 would be considered junk, which arent considered NTCs. Hard to say that a motor that is capable of 6.5MPG is a POS even if it does smoke a bit when its cold.

Agreed.well put someone is misinformed

Johnp3
12-31-2009, 02:16 AM
In my area we had problems with those motors, Lots of motors that work in one area do not work well in another. If that motor was used in the right environment it worked very well. If it was worked when cold it would break the crank, if it was worked hard it broke the exhaust manifold sections, broke head bolts. Lots of engines were good in there day, that engine was not a shining star for very long. Every one went to Cat soon after this one came out in this area. Compare this engine and a 375 "CAT" that is an engine that worked in this area. Jake's did not but it did pull and last.

Lowboy
12-31-2009, 02:28 AM
In my area we had problems with those motors, Lots of motors that work in one area do not work well in another. If that motor was used in the right environment it worked very well. If it was worked when cold it would break the crank, if it was worked hard it broke the exhaust manifold sections, broke head bolts. Lots of engines were good in there day, that engine was not a shining star for very long. Every one went to Cat soon after this one came out in this area. Compare this engine and a 375 "CAT" that is an engine that worked in this area. Jake's did not but it did pull and last.

You must be celebrating new years early. :happymugs :roflol:

In the early days we were pulling the first production Cat motors out of Peterbilts and replacing with Cummins NTC's. Inboard steering boxes were a PITA to overcome for clearance. But the later Cat motors were great and ran well.

CLC379
01-04-2010, 07:28 AM
In my area we had problems with those motors, Lots of motors that work in one area do not work well in another. If that motor was used in the right environment it worked very well. If it was worked when cold it would break the crank, if it was worked hard it broke the exhaust manifold sections, broke head bolts. Lots of engines were good in there day, that engine was not a shining star for very long. Every one went to Cat soon after this one came out in this area. Compare this engine and a 375 "CAT" that is an engine that worked in this area. Jake's did not but it did pull and last.


well crud what if i have one of those motors, lets say to save bolts and exhaust manifolds i work it easy, keep the gross weight down to 120k lb and my speed under 130mph but i do not want a broken crank, how will i know when i am entering your area and what temperature is cold:popcorn

LOG HAULER
01-04-2010, 11:01 AM
well crud what if i have one of those motors, lets say to save bolts and exhaust manifolds i work it easy, keep the gross weight down to 120k lb and my speed under 130mph but i do not want a broken crank, how will i know when i am entering your area and what temperature is cold:popcorn


I'm scratching my head on that on the BC was one the best ever built.............many people are still running them

Johnp3
01-04-2010, 04:50 PM
When that motor was used weights were 72,000lbs and single trailers, I drove one while we were on shut down, for about two months and you were to drive gently until you got 140 degree oil temp. Now 130 MPH that would be interesting, running biased ply cotton cord tires.

bell206b3
01-09-2010, 12:25 AM
I'm scratching my head on that on the BC was one the best ever built.............many people are still running them

I'm still running a Big Cam 1. It has been modified, it pulls strong, it gets 5.5 - 6.0mpg. It doesn't overheat, and it takes one 12VDC wire to make it run.

It can be fixed w/ standard SAE handtools. It is very user friendly, and in my opinion it is a stout HD diesel engine displacing 855 cubic inches, and capable of producing 400-500hp safely if driven by a responsible operator.

The engine has aluminum pistons, and they are certainly a weak point. The PT fuel system, while easy to modify, does not have the adjustment of a CAT pump, but is reliable.

A decent overhaul kit can be had for $1500... I really think the NTC series are solid... old...but solid.

LOG HAULER
07-16-2010, 11:04 PM
The NTC was a terrible piece of **** they were hard to start Smoked white, forever, They were one step below a 444. To find out what parts came with which CPL Complete Parts List we had a book, It tells you which heads kits injectors turbo Cam most everything If you have the CPL of what you have and what you want and go to Cummins they can tell you whether you old parts are a core, and prices. They may not be as helpful over the phone. Just a thought!

Watch what comes out that hole in your face (The NTC was a terrible piece of ****):postwhore

ynot
07-18-2010, 03:09 PM
Wow no sht huh?!?! One step BELOW the most failed engine Cummins made?? Personally, I'd take an NTC over any N14/ Signature/ ISX ever made. Easy to make run, lasts 800K+, and costs about nothing if something lets go... :)

LOG HAULER
07-18-2010, 03:12 PM
Wow no sht huh?!?! One step BELOW the most failed engine Cummins made?? Personally, I'd take an NTC over any N14/ Signature/ ISX ever made. Easy to make run, lasts 800K+, and costs about nothing if something lets go... :)
Same here Ynot I didn't understand the guy bashing the best engine ever built

ynot
07-18-2010, 03:17 PM
Same here Ynot I didn't understand the guy bashing the best engine ever built

Longest running CPL builds ever produced. Best is a stretch, unless you're a Cummins only guy... ;) :thumbsup

fest777
07-19-2010, 07:24 AM
nt/ntc/nta was the bomb, in there day they were the most popular engine on u.s. highway's, from the 60's to the 90's almost a 30 year run ,I just CAN NOT agree with it being a p.o.s., no way, that's like saying the 3406 cat was a p.o.s., and everybody knows the 3406 was one of the best cat engine's built, going from 350 to 400 was not a big thing, mainly the front dampner / larger, turbo hot side housing/ higher ratio, pump recalibration/more pressure, injectors flowed a little higher, timing was 5 deg. more retarded /65 to 70/ that was it for the most part, more than often 350 pistons would work in a 400 hp. many 350's were jacked up higher than 400 that is for dam sure !!!!!!!

Johnp3
07-19-2010, 04:55 PM
The NTC"s 400, that I worked on always smoked like a ? when cold. The engine when hot and running , you are correct it was stout, and did last. I was comparing it to the N14 which as a 430 or the 460 was one of the best. Just a thought!

379Longhood
07-19-2010, 06:22 PM
The nature of a PT system is to retard the timing at lower pressure that is where the smoke came from ,
Smokey as a late ntc was they were the longest running (production wise) engine
they did well for 1940 s design

Johnp3
07-20-2010, 02:52 AM
Sterling crane had a bunch of them in Edmonton beside Byers, and they use to start them every morning at about 7 o'clock in the AM, in the winter, and the RCMP came over and told them that if they did it again they would be charged. The smoke was so bad it would block the freeway.

379Longhood
07-20-2010, 03:26 AM
Those may have been NTA small cams , those engines were rediculus for smoke, they were low compression and ran real high line pressure at WOT so they were really retarded at Idle speed made for lots of cold smoke
Most of the big cams were a lot less smokey
Clean cold starts and a stable cold Idle made the 3406 a popular engine here
Along with a few other advantages like one piece heads