truck wont start hot [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: truck wont start hot


blizzardplower
03-08-2010, 10:26 PM
ok so far i have changed the icp cause it was throwing a code, branch tubes and the stc fitting a few months ago so i dont think any of those are my issue. when cranking the truck when cold it takes a few seconds for the oil pressure gauge on the dash to come up to where its supposed to be and when hot i can crank it over all day and it wont move but as long as i dont shut the truck off the oil gauge stays normal. im gonna pull the stc fitting to check if thats a problem but i dont think it is. could my lpop be going even though it only has 50k on it. thanks for the help i need this thing back up and running cause i have 3 people that want to buy the truck

teamroper60
03-08-2010, 10:46 PM
I'd check the o-rings in the oil logs first...

hhrecovery
03-08-2010, 11:38 PM
its the o-rings that go to the standpipes... just like Chuck said.

bodacious diesel
03-09-2010, 07:32 AM
read this

New One-Piece High Pressure Oil Connector

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glossary
Since the redesign of the high pressure oil pump for 2005 and newer Power Stroke diesel engines the "snap-to-connect" or STC fitting used to connect the high pressure oil pump to the oil supply branch tube has been problematic. The two piece fittings have a tendency to flex causing wear on the seal and the locking ring resulting in leaks and occasionally the complete separation of the fitting. When a leak occurs at this fitting, the engine may be difficult to start or may not start at all. Depending on the severity of the leak the engine may stall, sometimes abruptly and without warning. See article 6.0L ICP System Leaks which describes high pressure oil system leaks and basic diagnostics.

A repair kit was developed containing a replacement fitting, connector and a bracket that supported the assembly preventing any movement of the branch tube and connector. See article HPOP Connector Bracket describing this kit in detail with photographs. To the best of our knowledge this kit is effective in preventing STC fitting failures and continues to be an approved repair. Some owners are installing this bracket as a preventative measure for piece of mind. We also recommend installing it if the pump is exposed during repairs however it is not covered under warranty unless the fitting fails. A new fitting shown below has been designed is a one piece connector most likely intended to address this issue for production engines. As of the date of this article, the fitting is available to International dealers and service departments but has not been released by Ford Motor Company as a service part however we have heard that this fitting will replace the STC bracket. The new connector is reported to be in production 4.5L and 6.0L Power Strokes for 2008 model year LCF trucks and Econoline along with the International VT-275 and the VT-365. The 6.0L Power Stroke diesel engine remains as an engine option for the 2008 Econoline.


The International Part Number is 1879930c91.


The fitting is installed in production engines starting from:

V8 engines: Engine ser# 431736 on 2/9/07.
V6 engines: Engine ser# 431705 on 2/8/07.



This article is only to provide information. It is hoped that it helps technicians in identifying possible causes and assist in the quick diagnosis of the identified concern. This is not intended to replace any official instructions, authorization or documentation of any Ford Motor Company Engineers, service manual, TSB, Service Message or recall.

6.0L ICP System Leaks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glossary


A new nuisance has become increasingly common and it's not a laughing matter. Just as the 7.3L Power Stroke had it's problems with o-rings both at the injectors and the external fittings, the 6.0L Power Stroke is developing it's own problematic oil control issues. To understand the significance of this article you need to understand that the HEUI (Hydraulic/Electronic Unit Injector) fuel injectors are a type of unit injectors that are actuated by high pressure engine oil. Without control of this pressure, these engines will not run.

The symptoms of a high pressure oil leak include:


Cranks / No start
Long crank to start
Stalls and wont restart
Wont restart hot but starts normally when cold


This is not a easy one to diagnose. The technician must first determine that there is a concern with the ICP system and typically this will show up as a continuous memory DTC. Monitoring the ICP parameter during cranking using a scan tool will verify low or no injection control pressure. The engine will not start until the PCM reads 500 psi from the ICP sensor and a low reading at this time will confirm a failure in the High Pressure Oil System.


Two important items to consider before looking for a leak:


A failure in the low pressure engine lube oil system will cause the ICP system to starve for oil. Verifying base engine oil pressure and repairing any concerns first is a must! The minimum engine oil pressure specifications are 82.7 kPa (12 psi) at 700 rpm, 165.5 kPa (24 psi) at 1,200 rpm and 310.3 kPa (45 psi) at 1,800 rpm with the engine at operating temperature. Low or no pressure could be caused by the oil pressure regulator valve, gerotor oil pump or an internal lube oil pressure leak.


If oil supply is not the cause, the ICP sensor, IPR valve, wiring and the PCM should also be checked for loose connections, damaged wiring and components and any applicable pinpoint tests should be performed to identify a failure in the control system.


The ICP Air Leak Test is performed by applying compressed air to the system using an adapter, closing the IPR valve and listening for an audible air leak. Isolating the leak can be difficult and time consuming because all of the related components are hidden inside the engine (6.0L). Photo #1 shows an F-Series truck with the ICP sensor removed and an air line connected directly to the right high pressure oil rail. Photo #2 shows the air connected at the high pressure oil pump because accessing the ICP sensor with the test fitting and an air hose is nearly impossible and very time consuming. Using an open tubed stethoscope to listen for air noise it will be necessary to remove the oil fill tube, the oil fill plug on the left head if equipped or the engine breather on the left valve cover. Minor air leaks at the pump shaft is considered normal. If the technician is lucky the leak will be found quickly otherwise access and removal of the high pressure pump and the oil rails will be necessary to inspect all of the seals for damage. This includes the HPOP discharge fittings, injector inlet o-rings, the crankcase to cylinder head feed tubes and plugs.
photo #1


photo #2






Common High Pressure Oil System Failures

Injector Inlet O-rings
photo #3
photo #4

Looking at the two photos of 6.0L injector oil inlets above, they may look similar but they are very different in their effect. The injector in Photo #3 is considered to be a full blown seal failure with the retaining ring, the backer ring and the o-ring all broken and pieces missing. This failure caused the engine to abruptly stall and it never restarted. This failure was easily located using the ICP air leak test. The injector in Photo #4 is an example of a failure in the beginning stages. This failure caused the engine not to start when it was hot due to the lower viscosity of the hot engine oil. The ICP air leak test was ineffective in detecting this leak due to it's size and the relative low pressure of the shop air. Unfortunately, both valve covers and oil rails had to be removed to inspect all 8 injector seals.






HPOP Discharge Fitting
photo #5
photo #6

The second common failure is the high pressure oil pump discharge quick disconnect fitting. Why this fitting is even there makes no sense. When this fitting fails to hold under pressure it separates damaging the female part of the coupling. Photo #5 shows the assembly attached to the pump. The fitting is separated and stuck in a cocked position as shown. Once apart the damage to the fitting is quite clear as you can see the fitting is elongated and the internal o-ring has come apart. This failure also resulted in the engine abruptly shutting off. The owner also reported long crank times for several days before the truck failed to restart.


This article is only to provide information and it is hoped that it may help technicians in diagnosing and repairing the concerns or failures as titled. This article is also intended to show what a technician does while performing this repair for the benefit of our visitors and vehicle owners. This is not intended to replace any official instructions, authorization or documentation of any Ford Motor Company published repairs or procedures. Due to safety risks, it is highly recommended that a trained and certified technician perform any diagnostics and repairs described.

6.0L ICP System Leaks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glossary


A new nuisance has become increasingly common and it's not a laughing matter. Just as the 7.3L Power Stroke had it's problems with o-rings both at the injectors and the external fittings, the 6.0L Power Stroke is developing it's own problematic oil control issues. To understand the significance of this article you need to understand that the HEUI (Hydraulic/Electronic Unit Injector) fuel injectors are a type of unit injectors that are actuated by high pressure engine oil. Without control of this pressure, these engines will not run.

The symptoms of a high pressure oil leak include:


Cranks / No start
Long crank to start
Stalls and wont restart
Wont restart hot but starts normally when cold


This is not a easy one to diagnose. The technician must first determine that there is a concern with the ICP system and typically this will show up as a continuous memory DTC. Monitoring the ICP parameter during cranking using a scan tool will verify low or no injection control pressure. The engine will not start until the PCM reads 500 psi from the ICP sensor and a low reading at this time will confirm a failure in the High Pressure Oil System.


Two important items to consider before looking for a leak:


A failure in the low pressure engine lube oil system will cause the ICP system to starve for oil. Verifying base engine oil pressure and repairing any concerns first is a must! The minimum engine oil pressure specifications are 82.7 kPa (12 psi) at 700 rpm, 165.5 kPa (24 psi) at 1,200 rpm and 310.3 kPa (45 psi) at 1,800 rpm with the engine at operating temperature. Low or no pressure could be caused by the oil pressure regulator valve, gerotor oil pump or an internal lube oil pressure leak.


If oil supply is not the cause, the ICP sensor, IPR valve, wiring and the PCM should also be checked for loose connections, damaged wiring and components and any applicable pinpoint tests should be performed to identify a failure in the control system.


The ICP Air Leak Test is performed by applying compressed air to the system using an adapter, closing the IPR valve and listening for an audible air leak. Isolating the leak can be difficult and time consuming because all of the related components are hidden inside the engine (6.0L). Photo #1 shows an F-Series truck with the ICP sensor removed and an air line connected directly to the right high pressure oil rail. Photo #2 shows the air connected at the high pressure oil pump because accessing the ICP sensor with the test fitting and an air hose is nearly impossible and very time consuming. Using an open tubed stethoscope to listen for air noise it will be necessary to remove the oil fill tube, the oil fill plug on the left head if equipped or the engine breather on the left valve cover. Minor air leaks at the pump shaft is considered normal. If the technician is lucky the leak will be found quickly otherwise access and removal of the high pressure pump and the oil rails will be necessary to inspect all of the seals for damage. This includes the HPOP discharge fittings, injector inlet o-rings, the crankcase to cylinder head feed tubes and plugs.
photo #1


photo #2






Common High Pressure Oil System Failures

Injector Inlet O-rings
photo #3
photo #4

Looking at the two photos of 6.0L injector oil inlets above, they may look similar but they are very different in their effect. The injector in Photo #3 is considered to be a full blown seal failure with the retaining ring, the backer ring and the o-ring all broken and pieces missing. This failure caused the engine to abruptly stall and it never restarted. This failure was easily located using the ICP air leak test. The injector in Photo #4 is an example of a failure in the beginning stages. This failure caused the engine not to start when it was hot due to the lower viscosity of the hot engine oil. The ICP air leak test was ineffective in detecting this leak due to it's size and the relative low pressure of the shop air. Unfortunately, both valve covers and oil rails had to be removed to inspect all 8 injector seals.






HPOP Discharge Fitting
photo #5
photo #6

The second common failure is the high pressure oil pump discharge quick disconnect fitting. Why this fitting is even there makes no sense. When this fitting fails to hold under pressure it separates damaging the female part of the coupling. Photo #5 shows the assembly attached to the pump. The fitting is separated and stuck in a cocked position as shown. Once apart the damage to the fitting is quite clear as you can see the fitting is elongated and the internal o-ring has come apart. This failure also resulted in the engine abruptly shutting off. The owner also reported long crank times for several days before the truck failed to restart.


This article is only to provide information and it is hoped that it may help technicians in diagnosing and repairing the concerns or failures as titled. This article is also intended to show what a technician does while performing this repair for the benefit of our visitors and vehicle owners. This is not intended to replace any official instructions, authorization or documentation of any Ford Motor Company published repairs or procedures. Due to safety risks, it is highly recommended that a trained and certified technician perform any diagnostics and repairs described.

bodacious diesel
03-09-2010, 07:45 AM
http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/articles/article-05-17.php
hear is the link it is to get a fitting i think it is a 12mm and adapter fitting to go to a male air hoes fitting and listien for leaks or you can put a 4,5oo lb gage on it and check the press. when hot you need at least 500 psi on the h.p.o.p. for the ficum to fier the injectors

bodacious diesel
03-09-2010, 07:50 AM
if you find that it is the injector o rings ford wont sell u them they want to sell the injector so if you need them i can sell u them for 12.00 each in sted of almost 300 for a injector jeremiah 3

hhrecovery
03-09-2010, 11:34 AM
[quote=bodacious diesel;963060]if you find that it is the injector o rings ford wont sell u them they want to sell the injector so if you need them i can sell u them for 12.00 each in sted of almost 300 for a injector jeremiah
I buy injector orings from ford on a weekly basis... The msrp on them is 5.38 a piece and I bet EVERY dealer has them in stock.

blizzardplower
03-09-2010, 04:36 PM
thanks for the tips. but will that give me the problem with the oil gauge not registering when warmed up

05PSD
03-09-2010, 04:37 PM
[quote=bodacious diesel;963060]if you find that it is the injector o rings ford wont sell u them they want to sell the injector so if you need them i can sell u them for 12.00 each in sted of almost 300 for a injector jeremiah

Are you an authorized vendor for this site?

Also, my local dealer has them for 6.00 each.

blizzardplower
03-09-2010, 06:14 PM
quick question the stand pipes should they be replaced anytime they are taken out ie. an injector being replaced cause i had to replace an injector on both sides and reused the old standpipes so they have been taken on and off 2 or 3 times

blizzardplower
03-09-2010, 08:50 PM
ok another quick question....what are the signs of a cracked oil cooler and would it go bad at only 50k miles and could this cause my problems as well. i have been reading they tend to go bad when the egr cooler cracks and of course mine did and i deleted it.

teamroper60
03-09-2010, 09:31 PM
Your coolant will look like a milkshake.