C13 vs. C15 ? [Archive] - TheDieselGarage.com

: C13 vs. C15 ?


niceguypmp3
03-09-2010, 01:04 PM
We were looking at buying a couple more tractors and most of the used tractors that we were looking at have 430 hp C13's. We already have 2 C15's that we haul with that are rated 435 hp. I realize the C13 is a smaller engine. At those ratings for each engine and the trucks being '03 freightliner columbia's for the c15 and '05 columbia's for the c13 and both 10 speeds, would there be much difference in pulling power/torque if we are at 80k gross with a 12'6" high steel gondola trailer behind it? any info would surely be appreciated. Thanks guys!

Jfaulkner
03-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Just assuming the '03 C15's are MBN's (single turbo "bridge" engine)and not Acerts?

niceguypmp3
03-09-2010, 01:23 PM
yes, the c15's are single turbo.

Jfaulkner
03-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Personally I'd buy the C15's and have the ECM's reflashed to an older flash file. (like 6NZ) We've got both an '03 C15 MBN and an '04 C13 and while we've had no problems out of either you can't beat the power and torque of the larger engine.

The reflash can't be done at Cat or any dealer, it's got to be done by a few people on here.

niceguypmp3
03-09-2010, 05:33 PM
Why would you have the C15's reflashed to an older flash file? Just curious.

But yea, I finally got my dad talked into not listening to the salesman who said the C13 would pull just as good as the C15 (the same salesman that last year sold us a freightliner with the ism cummins with 300 hp who said it would pull as hard as a 465 hp n14 that we had. dad believed him and we bought it. we had to make them let us return it because it damn near killed the truck and driver pulling 80k from southern iowa to st. louis. at which point he said "you asked if it could pull it and i said yes.... you just didn't ask how fast! it has no where near the power of the n14" 2 headed !@$%$# Sorry for the rant. Thanks for the info though.

legend10
03-09-2010, 07:01 PM
C15.

black_dog106
03-09-2010, 09:50 PM
C15.

:whs.... these guys are giving you excellent info...:thumbsup

Mack427
03-09-2010, 10:36 PM
I would think it would take a C-13 rated at 470 to match your C-15'S max hp on a stock 435 is already 455hp the question is what will being able to haul another 600lb of scrap every load worth to you and how much fuel would you save going back empty, those open top Gondolas pull just about as hard empty as they do full so I'm told

black_dog106
03-09-2010, 10:44 PM
true... I suppose one could pull a 5.9 out of his dodge p/u. Think of the weight savings. Could carry another ton of net weight...
And think of the milage gain on the deadhead return trip.......:tada

sulltran
03-09-2010, 11:06 PM
true... I suppose one could pull a 5.9 out of his dodge p/u. Think of the weight savings. Could carry another ton of net weight...
And think of the milage gain on the deadhead return trip.......:tada



I don't care who you are....that's funny right there.:haha:haha:haha

dondiesel444
03-09-2010, 11:15 PM
forget about horsepower, TORQUE is where it's at. remember the old "displacement" rhyme? we call 3406's and C-15's "big-blocks" and C-12/13 etc. "small blocks"

in case you can't tell I am saying go with the C-15

niceguypmp3
03-09-2010, 11:15 PM
As i've heard several times, "there's no replacement for displacement". The place we were lookin at gettin a couple tractors at found a couple with C15's for us. Slightly higher miles, but the price is alot lower and they are like our '03's which are pre DPF. I'd still like to know the reasoning behind reflashing the ecm to an older flash file. Thanks alot guys!

Lmackattack
03-10-2010, 12:23 AM
its all about how easy do you want to pull "x" amount of weight

My old B model mack with that monster 205hp END711 will pull 80k loads just not nearly as easy as a new c-15 cat. Heck a new pick up truck engine puts out the same if not more HP than the old dog. they did it back then with no power so it can still be done today..... but again how fast and how easy do you want to pull it?

If I was to look at current engines for consistant 80K loads I would want a 450-550 motor. If I was to run all day on the flats less than 70k 300-400HP would do the job fine. my little 285 mack hauls the end dump pretty good for a little engine but around here the largest hill is the on ramps to the skyway(I-90)

It seams that most trucks of today are 400HP+

Mack427
03-10-2010, 12:58 AM
true... I suppose one could pull a 5.9 out of his dodge p/u. Think of the weight savings. Could carry another ton of net weight...
And think of the milage gain on the deadhead return trip.......:tada

you can laugh at that type of thinking as long as A. you get paid by the mile or B. are not interested in making Max. profit on a job

1k extra per load 3-4 loads per day 5 days a week you do the math

C-15 would be my choice between the two motors but neither truck would suit me personally

Jfaulkner
03-10-2010, 01:42 AM
Why would you have the C15's reflashed to an older flash file? Just curious.

The MBN "Bridge" engine is what Cat put out to satisfy the EPA until the Acert engines were ready. Max hp was cut from 550hp to 525hp, had horrible programming and were not known for good fuel mileage. To have one uprated from 475 to 525 from Cat costs a fortune because most of the charge goes to the EPA. BUT all that can be changed with a cam swap, injectors (I think) and reprogramming. The 6NZ was the engine model prefix before the MBN. (we have 2 and they run awesome) The good news is just by having the ECM reflashed to the program for the 6NZ takes care of most of the performance and fuel issues. But to get the most out of it you need to change some hard parts (cam ect) but A reflash helps most.

DDS, or Mr.Haney or a few others that's had this done could help you more with this.

Here is a good source of info on Cat engines. (http://ohe.cat.com/cda/files/301738/7/LEDT9445-04_usedtruck.pdf)

I would think it would take a C-13 rated at 470 to match your C-15'S max hp on a stock 435 is already 455hp the question is what will being able to haul another 600lb of scrap every load worth to you and how much fuel would you save going back empty, those open top Gondolas pull just about as hard empty as they do full so I'm told

you can laugh at that type of thinking as long as A. you get paid by the mile or B. are not interested in making Max. profit on a job

1k extra per load 3-4 loads per day 5 days a week you do the math

C-15 would be my choice between the two motors but neither truck would suit me personally

While I understand what your saying and in theory it's true, in the real world it's not going to make much difference. We have 2 trucks that haul grain, one with a C12 and one with a C13 and lightweight = more profit BUT in most cases if your 79,400 and not loading while sitting on scales your not going to go back to load that extra 600 lbs. Especially if there's a line or there's a chance your going to be 80,200 and they make you get legal to leave. Any extra profit is lost in time and fuel loading and unloading. Also there probably isn't much weight difference between the older single turbo MBN vs the twin turbo C13. Not saying your wrong, on paper it works but in this case there probably isn't going to be much difference.

niceguypmp3
03-10-2010, 02:40 AM
jfaulkner, thanks for that very informative link. From what that was saying, the C13 and C15 should have pretty much the same torque rating. I find it hard to believe though that a smaller engine could pull as well as the larger one if everything else is the same. Within a few days, we will probably have 4 2003, C15's, all rated at 435? hp. From what we've been told, the 10 spd trans is only rated for like 1350 torque and supposedly that's what the C15 is already set at, so we safely cannot increase the power!?! I'm just going by what a couple shops and the salesman told us. We'd love to be able to get better mileage and a little more power if possible without paying an arm and a leg, but I dont know how or where to get that done from south central iowa (45 miles south of Des Moines on I-35). The big problem we've been having with the 2 we already have is that the colder it is, the slower they turn over to start when cold. The one is so bad that even for a cold start at 40 F it barely turns over for the first few turns, even after replacing the batteries. We've cleaned and tightened all the connections. We are assuming we have a weak starter on it, so that's the next step. Mileage on both trucks going from here to st. louis on what smaller highways they can find and at 80k loaded and like 46k empty, average right around 4.8 mpg for the trip. Seems kinda low to us, but it is alot of weight with those open top gondola's. Thanks again!

Lmackattack
03-10-2010, 02:58 AM
does sound like a bad starter?

I just had the company truck at the dealer. my 3406E 550 cat over its life is avg 5.20 MPGs

we run around 67-72K to and from race tracks and are hammer down all the time. 75 MPH all day out west, 10 over the limit over everwhere els :bluesbros

Jfaulkner
03-10-2010, 09:20 PM
jfaulkner, thanks for that very informative link. From what that was saying, the C13 and C15 should have pretty much the same torque rating. I find it hard to believe though that a smaller engine could pull as well as the larger one if everything else is the same. Within a few days, we will probably have 4 2003, C15's, all rated at 435? hp. From what we've been told, the 10 spd trans is only rated for like 1350 torque and supposedly that's what the C15 is already set at, so we safely cannot increase the power!?! I'm just going by what a couple shops and the salesman told us. We'd love to be able to get better mileage and a little more power if possible without paying an arm and a leg, but I dont know how or where to get that done from south central iowa (45 miles south of Des Moines on I-35). The big problem we've been having with the 2 we already have is that the colder it is, the slower they turn over to start when cold. The one is so bad that even for a cold start at 40 F it barely turns over for the first few turns, even after replacing the batteries. We've cleaned and tightened all the connections. We are assuming we have a weak starter on it, so that's the next step. Mileage on both trucks going from here to st. louis on what smaller highways they can find and at 80k loaded and like 46k empty, average right around 4.8 mpg for the trip. Seems kinda low to us, but it is alot of weight with those open top gondola's. Thanks again!

You can increase the power if you want. You can get a 10spd rated for 1850tq and if it's like my 13spd the only difference between the 1850tq and the 2250tq is the clutch and "upgraded bearings". That being said you could uprate to 550hp and probably not have any transmission problems assuming the driver doesn't tear it up. Either way simply by getting rid of the crappy EPA programming of the MBN and leaving the power down you'll still be better off.

Here is a link to transmission specs. (http://www.roadranger.com/Roadranger/productssolutions/SpecificationGuide/LinehaulManual/index.htm)

sexytrkr
03-10-2010, 10:42 PM
C16 :five:bravo

legend10
03-13-2010, 05:43 AM
Yes C16 also. It doesnt seem like theres as many of them out there......Whats the diff between a C16 and C15 anyways? longer stroke?

dds
03-13-2010, 11:39 AM
C15 has a 5.4 bore with a 6.5 stroke 891 ci

C16 has a 5.5 bore with a 6.7 stroke 964 ci

legend10
03-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Can you turn a C15 into a C16? Would it be worth it?

black_dog106
03-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Can you turn a C15 into a C16? Would it be worth it?

With enough money, yes you can. Big parts are the C16 crank and rods. Then the correct liner/piston packs. And most likely injectors/turbo.
Do a search of the forum,it will be covered in here, somewhere.
And hopefully the Cat Gods will see this thread and give you the real story on details of building a 16 liter motor....:happymugs

niceguypmp3
03-13-2010, 09:03 PM
Well, we're going to look into finding out how much it would be for someone to reflash the ecm from the mbn to the older flashfile even though we're not totally for sure what All that it will fix/help. Also, how much would it help to get rid of the factory single muffler for either duals or a higher flow muffler?

sexytrkr
03-16-2010, 10:36 PM
Well, we're going to look into finding out how much it would be for someone to reflash the ecm from the mbn to the older flashfile even though we're not totally for sure what All that it will fix/help. Also, how much would it help to get rid of the factory single muffler for either duals or a higher flow muffler?

any restrictions are bad, so putting two high flows or straights on it would help

ynot
03-17-2010, 04:36 AM
With enough money, yes you can. Big parts are the C16 crank and rods. Then the correct liner/piston packs. And most likely injectors/turbo.
Do a search of the forum,it will be covered in here, somewhere.
And hopefully the Cat Gods will see this thread and give you the real story on details of building a 16 liter motor....:happymugs

You covered it Dave, but could get by with turbo and inj's and tune the ECM for it. 16's had lower comp pistons so valve contact isn't an issue for using that or any cam either, tho bigger ones are out there :)

black_dog106
03-17-2010, 10:38 AM
You covered it Dave, but could get by with turbo and inj's and tune the ECM for it. 16's had lower comp pistons so valve contact isn't an issue for using that or any cam either, tho bigger ones are out there :)

As always, THANK YOU Tony:
If this was your project, and you were going to replace anyway, which cam would be your choice for a mild horsepower upgrade? ...:happymugs

ynot
03-17-2010, 04:15 PM
As always, THANK YOU Tony:
If this was your project, and you were going to replace anyway, which cam would be your choice for a mild horsepower upgrade? ...:happymugs

Actually a question for Haney. My choice would be based on what other parts were goin in. There are 800HP+ versions for a C15 and 16, but matching to injectors is a plus for stroke (to ease in tuning). He'll catch this and add a more trial educated version, i'm sure :thumbsup

legend10
03-17-2010, 07:12 PM
I'v also seen 2 C13's drop valves, multiple oil coolers, LOTs of leaking oil filter base gaskets, cracked turbo flanges and a couple ECMs