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Old 07-10-2011, 03:38 PM   #1
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Pro's and Con's of EGR delete

going to order all my parts to do studs, coolers, etc this week and have one question. Should i delete the egr or go with a BPD egr cooler. What are the positives and negative of keeping or deleting the egr?

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Old 07-10-2011, 05:14 PM   #2
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The pro's of keeping your egr cooler:
A VERY important part of the decision to keep or delete is the legal aspect of it.
The EPA regulates this stuff, and modifying any pollution control device (such as your EGR cooler) is a Federal crime.
If you have local or state mandated emissions testing as part of your annual inspection (now or in the future), you will fail.
If there is a Law Enforcement Officer out there that has a bad day and knows what he is looking for, you could get a HEFTY fine ($10,000 or more). Granted, this is extremely rare, but it HAS happened.
That wraps up the "pro's" as there is nothing to be gained by filling your intake or combustion chambers with exhaust gases.

The "CON's" of keeping your EGR cooler.
This component is failure prone. It all comes down to where in the coolant stream this thing sits. It is directly AFTER the oil cooler.
Take a look at the design of an oil cooler and you will quickly figure out that it would make a fairly effective coolant filter. It grabs all the junk in the cooling system and keeps it there. This plugs the coolant passages of the oil cooler.
The coolant leaving the oil cooler is directly fed to the EGR cooler.
Lets stop right here and look at just what the EGR cooler does, and why coolant flow is critical for its survival.
The EGR cooler (Exhaust Gas Recirculating) job is to cool the exhaust gases before the gas in reintroduced back into the engine. Your exhaust gas temperature can easily be over 1000F. I see you have a 2006. That means that in the passenger side exhaust 'up-pipe' where the EGR cooler attaches to the exhaust system, has a 'scoop' installed inside to direct as much of the exhaust that is possible through the EGR cooler. So the internals of your EGR cooler can reach up 1000F, the coolant has to move through the body of the EGR cooler rather rapidly to wick that type of heat away without boiling. Slow down the coolant flow, and it starts to boil. Boiling coolant will raise the pressure inside the EGR cooler. Put the high heat of the EGR cooler together with extra pressure of the boiling coolant and you will soon have a failure in one of the coolant passages in the cooler. This will allow coolant to flow two different ways.
One way being when the engine is running and the EGR valve opens. The coolant will flow into your intake manifold and into the cylinders. Remember why the EGR cooler failed? Higher than normal pressure created by the presence of stem, right? Guess what, the same principal applies in the cylinder. The steam pressure created by burning the coolant can cause high enough cylinder pressure to actually stretch the stock head bolts.
The second way that the coolant leak from a failed EGR can harm your engine is when the engine is switched off, or when the EGR valve is closed.
When the truck is running, and the EGR valve is closed, the coolant will flow out with the exhaust gases. This means that, due to the location of the EGR cooler in the exhaust stream, that coolant will be forced upwards from the egr cooler and into your turbo. The turbo is controlled by variable vanes, and those vanes are on the 'exhausrt drive' side if it. Diesel exhaust is sooty by nature and toss some coolant in with dry soot and you make a nice paste. This paste will impede the free movement of the ring that controls the vanes, making them stick. Overboosting of your engine is a very real possibility. (add this to the high steam pressure from burning the coolant... starting to get the full picture now)
Now, when the truck is shut off, the EGR valve is closed. The cooling system is still under pressure. The coolant will still flow out of the failure in the EGR cooler, leak into the exhaust 'up-pipe' on the passenger side, and down into the exhaust manifold. Then the coolant will seek out the lowest point, and find whatever cylinder has the exhaust valve open and flow into it. If the failure is severe and the truck has been left for a while, the leak can actually fill the cylinder and the exhaust manifold. That will hydrolock your engine.
Another con is the soot. If the EGR cooler is in place, you are sucking exhaust soot into the EGR valve (clogging it) and the intake manifold (choking it).

Pro for getting rid of it, beyond the obvious that you could gather on your own from above is the lowering of the exhaust gas temperature. Typically an EGR cooler delete will lower your EGT about 40F or so. That is good news for your turbo.

I have deleted my EGR cooler,my EGR valve still sits where it is supposed to be. There is a SLIGHT chance that when you delete your EGR, you will NOT get a code. I will bety you that you will.
P0401: Insufficient EGR flow detected is the code you will get. There is only 1 way to get rid of that code. That is with the proper custom written tune. That sounds expensive, but it really isn't.
SCT is the most popular platform for custom tuning on the 6.0 engine. Most every custom tune writer uses it. You can get a capable SCT tuner with 3 different custom tunes for a cost right around $430.
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updated stuff: turbo oil supply, fuel pressure spring
deleted stuff: stock oil cooler, egr cooler, next up is the kitty
added stuff: BPD oil cooler system w/cold weather package, Insight, FP, OP and boost gauges

Replace your own EGR cooler and OIL cooler. Files and notes

Comprehensive Flushing Technique

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Old 07-10-2011, 05:21 PM   #3
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If you have visual inspections it would be best to upgrade the egr cooler.

Tuning can turn the egr valve off. Some trucks like mine (with out tuning) are capable of electronically unplug their egr valve with out issues.

Here is a link for a egr system modifications that is "test" safe and "DTC" safe. You can do this with the stock egr cooler or the BPD egr cooler.
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/gen...7-up-pipe.html


I now have my egr cooler 100% plugged.
With out tuning and the egr valve plugged in (So only the egr cooler block is the only modification) I get an insufficient egr exhaust flow code.
If I also electronically unplug the egr valve I get the flow code and the 2 codes for electronically unplugging the valve.
With tuning and the egr valve plugged in, with the egr cooler 100% blocked, I do not get any codes.

Since the tunes I have eco tow and street from innovative diesel do not smoke enough (street tune) to fail the truck and are not detectable by the smog stations, I am safe with my 100% blocked egr cooler.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:47 PM   #4
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There is evidence that the act of unplugging your EGR valve will not only throw a code (of course it does) but has an effect on fan function. The guys over on the "Ford-Trucks" forum actually tested the theory and found it to be correct.

To pass a visual inspection, you can do as 'smokersteve' has and modify the existing EGR cooler. I am pretty sure he also removed that dumb scoop in the up-pipe as well. Definitely recommend that. There are also modified EGR coolers out there that appear to be an actual EGR cooler, but it is actually an EGR delete (along the same idea as his). The drawback is their cost. They want too darn much for them in my opinion. As much as the improved EGR coolers.

By the way, if you absolutely MUST keep the EGR cooler, and decide to have a functional one, bulletproof diesel has the BEST egr cooler design out there. Vastly improved coolant passages that will not fail anywhere near as easily as the stocker.
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updated stuff: turbo oil supply, fuel pressure spring
deleted stuff: stock oil cooler, egr cooler, next up is the kitty
added stuff: BPD oil cooler system w/cold weather package, Insight, FP, OP and boost gauges

Replace your own EGR cooler and OIL cooler. Files and notes

Comprehensive Flushing Technique

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Old 07-10-2011, 06:00 PM   #5
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Let's say that a good number of the reasons for and against are very accurate, and a few are not.

EGR allows more control of the combustion event, this helps keep PEAK cylinder temps and pressure within design limits and with emissions (NOx).

Deleting EGR will not, in and of itself, reduce EGTs and in fact will commonly increase them.

While deleting EGR will, by conventional wisdom, "make room for more clean air and hence improve power" the reality is far from that. Instead of a controlled combustion event with good MEP you get a less controlled combustion event with increased Peak pressures and generally lower MEP. MEP + RPM = Horse Power.

Deleting the EGR does reduce thermal load of the cooling package, but it was designed to handle it, so there is really no advantage to deleting it.

If you have a competant tuner, delete the EGR and keep your CP/CT in the nominal range, you can realize some durability improvement, primarily from a reduced risk of EGR cooler leaks. If you just delete it, or have a toon programmed in, durability is often reduced due to design limits for CP being exceeded, often significantly.

From my experience, well maintained STOCK engines are fara more reliable than any modified ones.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_G View Post
If you have a competant tuner, delete the EGR and keep your CP/CT in the nominal range, you can realize some durability improvement, primarily from a reduced risk of EGR cooler leaks. If you just delete it, or have a toon programmed in, durability is often reduced due to design limits for CP being exceeded, often significantly.
How would having a tune written excluding EGR valve commands result in realizing durability improvement from the EGR cooler? By not using it? Really? Is this your thought process?
If it is such a great piece of engineering, why wasn't one put on the 7.3?

Removing the EGR cooler from the picture greatly reduces your chance of head gasket failure. Period. It can't leak and cause problems if it isn't there.
Your thinking of having the EGR valve commands removed from the programming is flawed for one very simple reason. High boost numbers will force the EGR valve open. You won't even know it.

Coolant maintenance is hands-down the biggest underlying problem in the 6.0 liter. FORD, in its infinite wisdom chose a "one coolant for all" strategy in the day of the 6.0 liter. There is a long argument that goes on and on and on about this topic, and I would rather not have to rehash it all. My personal feeling is that if the coolant is good for a Ford Focus, it probably isn't such a good choice for my medium duty diesel engine.
Not properly maintaining the coolant is the reason that oil coolers plug, the EGR coolers fail and end in head gasket failure. (well the coolant and typical human nature of "if I ignore it, maybe it will go away" or "it is only doing that when I .....")

This isn't to say that by removing the EGR cooler from the picture, life will be grand and you will no longer have issues with your truck. Quite the contrary. The 6.0 NEEDS gauges. You have to monitor the vital signs of this engine. If you don't, your setting your wallet up for a world of hurt. Coolant temp/oil temp monitoring is absolutely CRITICAL. The stock gauges are nothing more than Fords idea of a cruel and unusual joke. Bythe time you see "overheating" on the stock gauge, you no longer have sufficient coolant in your engine, the engine is defueling (it begins defuel @221F ECT, 253F EOT) and bad things are coming your way. By the time the trans fluid temp gauge moves, you should have your new trans on order. That oil pressure gauge? Ford even calls it a "switch" which just turns on the needle movement. Anything above 5psi and it reads normal. If it drops, look at voltage and not your oil.
Here is a write-up I did over on the dieselstop about gauges for this engine, what you need and what to look out for. <LINK>

From first hand experience, deleting the EGR cooler does indeed drop EGT's. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50F on my truck, specifically.
Now, is that drop related to the removal of the restrictive scoop that is present in the up-pipe on the 6.0 (from 2004 up)? I can't really say for sure, because both my EGR cooler and the up-pipe with that scoop were removed at the same time. But I have certainly realized cooler EGT's. I monitor the EGT's for shut down as well. I shoot for between 350-400F depending on how much of a rush I am in at the time. Previous to the EGR delete, with the fully functional egr valve, it took noticeably longer to cool to this point. Why would that be?

I also take exception to when you say that a stock, unmodified engine will outlast a modified engine. There are modifications that will GREATLY improve longevity.
I have modified my engines oil cooling system. In fact, I no longer have the liquid to liquid oil cooler in my engine. My oil cooler is externally mounted (on the AC condenser) and thermostatically controlled. The filtration that this offers and the oil cooling is FAR superior to the stock system. A pricey modification to the tune of $2245.00 for just the parts. Check it out HERE. My oil cooler will last the lifetime of my truck. No stock unit will.

The manufacturers don't always get it right. This engines history will surely attest to that. Just take a look at the changes between 2003 and 2004.

Perhaps you should say that poorly designed, poorly executed or ill advised modifications can surely spell an early death of the engine. There are good and there are bad modifications. Pick wisely.
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updated stuff: turbo oil supply, fuel pressure spring
deleted stuff: stock oil cooler, egr cooler, next up is the kitty
added stuff: BPD oil cooler system w/cold weather package, Insight, FP, OP and boost gauges

Replace your own EGR cooler and OIL cooler. Files and notes

Comprehensive Flushing Technique

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Old 07-11-2011, 02:26 AM   #7
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funny how you mentioned the BPD oil cooler. I was actually thinking about that also, but everything i have read said the factory filter is the best. I already have a SCT so geting a new tune if I delete the EGR shouldn't be a problem. I was just concerned if deleting the EGR would cause any other issues. I want to fix this once and not have to tear back into it later.
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBird View Post
funny how you mentioned the BPD oil cooler. I was actually thinking about that also, but everything i have read said the factory filter is the best. I already have a SCT so geting a new tune if I delete the EGR shouldn't be a problem. I was just concerned if deleting the EGR would cause any other issues. I want to fix this once and not have to tear back into it later.
The factory filter is best for the factory oil filter housing. My filter housing on top of my engine is empty and has nothing going through it. The BPD system with the cold weather package places a VERY LARGE oil filter behind a debris shield behind the front bumper on the drivers side of the truck.
What year engine do you have? (edit, nevermind, I can see it after I posted this....) Another post is pending...
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updated stuff: turbo oil supply, fuel pressure spring
deleted stuff: stock oil cooler, egr cooler, next up is the kitty
added stuff: BPD oil cooler system w/cold weather package, Insight, FP, OP and boost gauges

Replace your own EGR cooler and OIL cooler. Files and notes

Comprehensive Flushing Technique

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Old 07-11-2011, 02:35 AM   #9
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If I was in your shoes, I would get a bunch of the parts that have been upgraded.

First and foremost is the STC fitting on the HPOP. If you haven't replaced it, do so.
Next would be new standpipes and dummy plugs for the oil rails.
Then the turbo oil supply line (now a hardline, no longer has a flex joint)
The "blue" fuel pressure regulator spring kit.
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06 F-350 FX4 4X4 Extra cab Short box
updated stuff: turbo oil supply, fuel pressure spring
deleted stuff: stock oil cooler, egr cooler, next up is the kitty
added stuff: BPD oil cooler system w/cold weather package, Insight, FP, OP and boost gauges

Replace your own EGR cooler and OIL cooler. Files and notes

Comprehensive Flushing Technique

6.0 Owners should know......
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC F-350 View Post
If I was in your shoes, I would get a bunch of the parts that have been upgraded.

First and foremost is the STC fitting on the HPOP. If you haven't replaced it, do so.
Next would be new standpipes and dummy plugs for the oil rails.
Then the turbo oil supply line (now a hardline, no longer has a flex joint)
The "blue" fuel pressure regulator spring kit.
already have those on the list along with a full set of guages.
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