Genral injector discussion - Diesel Truck Forum - TheDieselGarage.com
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2010, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Genral injector discussion

Please forgive me if this is long and or vague. If I put everything this thread would be looked past for to much content.

I am not out to try to Start a WAR on opinions. However; it might happen with this thread! I am just looking for guidance, and wondering if I am thinking the right way? I want to inspire out of the box thinking, without trying to reinvent the wheel (I seem to get that allot).

I want to go at it a different way. I have seen allot of injectors over the years including performance injectors, and the fuel pressures have increased, as well as injector timing. When looking back at older trucks (5.9 6bt for an example) We notice the evolution of performance injectors. First it was advance injector timing, then increase fuel pressure, followed by installing Marine injectors (after the initial intake exhaust and others, we will just considers this done throughout this post). Performance Shops discovered the weakness of the originals and started to modify accordingly. These shops and businesses are now the pioneers of diesel performance! Injector orifices were increased in size to allow more fuel (not to mention the pumps were modded to produce more fuel flow) when we start to get into black smoke that is when we are maxed out in timing, fuel pressure.

Question 1. What size are the diesel fuel droplets when atomized on a maxed out or fully modded injector?

Question 2. What size are the diesel droplets when atomized on the new power-plants?

Question 3. Does diesel get more volatile when extremely atomized?

29,000*psi (1,999 bar) high-pressure common rail Bosch fuel system on 6.7l this is the pressures that Ford is using. I do not know the pressures of the other power-plants yet. I was just trying to set up my next question. My Idea is to go another direction, fuel economy and power in an older engine. Starting with injector tips.

Question 4. How about smaller nozzles and more of them? I mean really small like half the size of a normal nozzle.

Granted we have a typical star pattern, that works well.

Question 5. How about a Cloud spray or Conical spray pattern that goes directly into the bowl, or maybe have the nozzles juxtaposition (Either against air current or with the current) in the intake swirl. I already know this happens to some degree in stock form. Just trying to squeeze more eficiency.

Now I am all for the performance and the search for more power. I just want to look at this in a different angle. I do not care if this Idea is put to good use, and that I do not make anything from it. (The manufacterers are already hip to this any way so no loss. That is besides the point (I cannot afford it anyway) might as well let somebody capitalize on this.

I know the basics about Injectors, I am just trying to see if anybody has the same Ideas. Granted I have no funds to actually do this experiment, nor the funds to process data to see the spray patterns that are actually happening in the combustion chamber. I do know that there are allot of shops out there that might. I would like some guidance please.

Forgive me for posting on a general subject everyone knows, I just want to make sure I am not stupid. I have over 150 new Ideas every day, some have to do with Mechanical, Software, Musical, and Marketing. I was told I would never be taken serious unless I have a degree. Well, I am almost done with my A/S will try to get my B/S. The unfortunate thing is I am late should have done this in my 20s. Now I am being told I am to old to be taken serious.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-30-2010, 02:25 AM Thread Starter
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Crap! Must have lost everybody!
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-30-2010, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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Am I a jerk or something?
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-01-2010, 04:00 PM
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Simple chemistry and physics will point out that increasing pressure will reduce droplet size, smaller droplets have more surface area to volume so they will burn quicker.

Cut the orifice diameter in half and the volume moved is about 1/4 th so the number of holes for the same volume is about 4 times as many.

Droplet size can be seen in a pop stand, it varies a lot.

A pop stand can be built with a bottle jack and kerosene for around $30 for jack and gauge from Northern Tool when they have a sale. It will do for those that know what they want to do. If you build one make sure that you understand that they are dangerous and can kill you if used wrong.

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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keydl View Post
Simple chemistry and physics will point out that increasing pressure will reduce droplet size, smaller droplets have more surface area to volume so they will burn quicker.

Cut the orifice diameter in half and the volume moved is about 1/4 th so the number of holes for the same volume is about 4 times as many.

Droplet size can be seen in a pop stand, it varies a lot.

A pop stand can be built with a bottle jack and kerosene for around $30 for jack and gauge from Northern Tool when they have a sale. It will do for those that know what they want to do. If you build one make sure that you understand that they are dangerous and can kill you if used wrong.
Thanks for posting! I thought maybe something was wrong with me. As far as the Pop stand, I have used one. Good tool! However; I need to know what the smallest size diesel droplet that can be made. I don't have access to Bosh's Database to know what they know.
If we went to a smaller hole and kept it in the same stock position. How much of an increase in pressure would that make. Makes no sense to turn up P-pump to increase pressure when you can just change the orifice size. All they are doing is increasing flow, Not pressure. That is the job of the injector, am I wrong?
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010, 02:44 AM
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Then you have noticed that the droplet size is variable and the higher the pressure the more small droplets. The pop pressure is where the orifices flow enough fuel to make the rated HP. More fuel is more HP until it runs out of air ( black smoke ). Raising pop pressure delays timing ( more tube expansion ) but can cut smoke - if the parts are rated for other equipment at the higher pressure. Advancing timing will cut smoke some - to a point - then it comes back big time with a risk to the engine.

ALL places that need cubic money for the education and a service library.

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Last edited by keydl; 09-04-2010 at 02:58 AM.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010, 06:58 AM Thread Starter
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Hmm... Still need to know whats the smallest droplet a diesel can be made.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010, 11:07 PM
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One molecule.

They are quite small at 20k pop - not visually discernible, at 1600 pop there are a lot of separate drops that drift free. The question does not have an answer as asked.

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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-05-2010, 03:14 AM Thread Starter
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One molecule.

They are quite small at 20k pop - not visually discernible, at 1600 pop there are a lot of separate drops that drift free. The question does not have an answer as asked.
Thanks I am probably being joked about. I just had to ask! I see all these hi performance injectors for competition and basic power upgrades. I would like to see injectors that can help increase fuel economy along with a small boost in power. Id like to think fuel efficiency is a form of performance. I am being told time after time that what I am after will never happen. So I am asking even more questions.

My case is quite complicated. since no one wants to take me under their wing. I have to learn the hard way.
So I have spent Three semesters, studying diesel technology with my focus on emissions, bio-diesel, and performance. I am 9 units from my associates of science degree. I am planing to go and attend Montana State for my Bachelors in diesel technology. I have only just scratched the surface, To much information, and so little time.
I need of help.
Thanks for your info
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-05-2010, 05:54 AM
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The volume will still remain the output HP _ smaller drops burn faster.

Raising the temperature with ceramic parts still looks to be the best % gain with a possibility of 30% improved mpg on the current designs. Block temps above 400 F and variable valve timing may do better.

I attended a couple of years college for mining engineering and the purpose of the question was unclear, the division of the problem was also not clear. But it is still BTU in = hp out minus losses. Don't think anyone is laughing just not a clue what form to answer.

93 Dodge /CTD, IC, 518, club cab LE, BHAF, KDP fixed, kelderman air ride
81 Isuzu /C223na, 5spd
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