im lost on fuel system info - Diesel Truck Forum - TheDieselGarage.com
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-24-2009, 05:04 AM Thread Starter
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the day i graduated high school
im lost on fuel system info

im still having a little trouble understanding when they say its a 150/95 gph or 150/220gph i know its the gallons per hour and thats all i know. and another thing is what to get with what performance? just help me understand a little more guys

like for example i got a airdog FP150 but thats bout the only thang i know but the website is below where i got it

http://www.xtremediesel.com/pureflow...stemfp150.aspx

97' Cummins 2500 Gauges from glowshift (EGT, boost) Fuel pressure gauge from auto-meter. Stage 2 airbox, boost elbow, barrels & plungers turned.Custom fuel plate,Airdog 150gph.AFC mods & 3K GSK.SDX injectors (stage 3 140hp).Drilled wastegate.Converted to a NV4500 with a double disc. Being restored from the ground up


01' Cummins 2500 (dads) with a Hotrod pump,100hp injectors, Fass 150, Edge juice with attitude,also plug and power chip,stage 2 ice box,4 1/2 exgaust pipe,HX40

Riding Dirty #60
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-24-2009, 11:25 AM
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Usually you take HP level you want to run and multiply it by .083 and that is how many gph you'll need. But since out engines have extra atmosphere help (turbo) you need to add 25% to that so:

650hp x .083 = 53.95gph x 125% = 67.43gph

That is just a rough figure and to get you an idea. IMO a 90gph pump will safely support 700hp. Over 700hp I would go with the 180gph or 220gph whatever they offer. Now the 150 in those numbers is the manufacturers number for the pump series. I have a FASS 150/90-1010. The 150 is the series with the large filters, the 90 is the gph rating and the 1010 is their internal part number which I assume means it is set-up for the 45psi requirments of the P-pump.

-Phil-
98 2500 4x4,12V,47RE Suncoast Billet input shaft, Suncoast H/D Extreme Trans kit, Goerend Triple disc converter, FASS 150/90, FASS Suction tube, Amsoil Ea air and pre-filter, 100 plate, 4K GSK, 370's, AFC Mods, CoolerTubz intake, straight piped 4" DP to 5" stacks, BD-SBS, Autometer Z-series Pyro/Boost/Trans/FP, Amsoil Bypass system and Amsoil fluids bumper to bumper.
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-24-2009, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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the day i graduated high school
ok i gotcha now that aint too bad then really easy to remember!! yea i did mine i want round 450hp or 500hp one day and ill have to have a 46.68gph but i do thanks for the info!! its like that saying you learn something new everyday

97' Cummins 2500 Gauges from glowshift (EGT, boost) Fuel pressure gauge from auto-meter. Stage 2 airbox, boost elbow, barrels & plungers turned.Custom fuel plate,Airdog 150gph.AFC mods & 3K GSK.SDX injectors (stage 3 140hp).Drilled wastegate.Converted to a NV4500 with a double disc. Being restored from the ground up


01' Cummins 2500 (dads) with a Hotrod pump,100hp injectors, Fass 150, Edge juice with attitude,also plug and power chip,stage 2 ice box,4 1/2 exgaust pipe,HX40

Riding Dirty #60
B.O.M.B Squad #79
Singles Club #260
Special thanks too


http://www.southerndieselx.com/
xtremediesel.com
dieselperformance.com
cptrucks.com
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-24-2009, 10:11 PM
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Now that's not some set in stone universal law though. Just a good rule of thumb to go by. That number is from me building drag motors and setting up cars but I assume it's close enough for our trucks to as they are both just air pumps.

-Phil-
98 2500 4x4,12V,47RE Suncoast Billet input shaft, Suncoast H/D Extreme Trans kit, Goerend Triple disc converter, FASS 150/90, FASS Suction tube, Amsoil Ea air and pre-filter, 100 plate, 4K GSK, 370's, AFC Mods, CoolerTubz intake, straight piped 4" DP to 5" stacks, BD-SBS, Autometer Z-series Pyro/Boost/Trans/FP, Amsoil Bypass system and Amsoil fluids bumper to bumper.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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the day i graduated high school
yea i dont see why dont, bascally usen the general idea

its like another guy said said the ad 100 is the same price as the ad 150 why not go ahead and get the 150 if your gonna do performance if not i would say a ad 100 or a raptor

what all you got done to that duster?

97' Cummins 2500 Gauges from glowshift (EGT, boost) Fuel pressure gauge from auto-meter. Stage 2 airbox, boost elbow, barrels & plungers turned.Custom fuel plate,Airdog 150gph.AFC mods & 3K GSK.SDX injectors (stage 3 140hp).Drilled wastegate.Converted to a NV4500 with a double disc. Being restored from the ground up


01' Cummins 2500 (dads) with a Hotrod pump,100hp injectors, Fass 150, Edge juice with attitude,also plug and power chip,stage 2 ice box,4 1/2 exgaust pipe,HX40

Riding Dirty #60
B.O.M.B Squad #79
Singles Club #260
Special thanks too


http://www.southerndieselx.com/
xtremediesel.com
dieselperformance.com
cptrucks.com

Last edited by 97CumminsTurboDiesel; 11-25-2009 at 07:19 PM.
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-26-2009, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97CumminsTurboDiesel View Post
what all you got done to that duster?
Not a lot, small solid lifter cam, 650dp, Eddy heads......100 shot of spray

-Phil-
98 2500 4x4,12V,47RE Suncoast Billet input shaft, Suncoast H/D Extreme Trans kit, Goerend Triple disc converter, FASS 150/90, FASS Suction tube, Amsoil Ea air and pre-filter, 100 plate, 4K GSK, 370's, AFC Mods, CoolerTubz intake, straight piped 4" DP to 5" stacks, BD-SBS, Autometer Z-series Pyro/Boost/Trans/FP, Amsoil Bypass system and Amsoil fluids bumper to bumper.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-26-2009, 06:12 PM
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i dont think that equation is exactly correct for GPH. 67gph for 650hp? maybe at 100% efficiency. using that equation, an AD-100 would be able to support 960hp. i think not.

Garrett






BRING BACK THE OLD TDG!
oh well, i have a map to the darkside

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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-26-2009, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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the day i graduated high school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusterb318 View Post
Not a lot, small solid lifter cam, 650dp, Eddy heads......100 shot of spray
nice! when i was younger there was a guy that could've sold me a dart for 200 dollars it just needed some money and time but man i could beat up myself for not taking it!

97' Cummins 2500 Gauges from glowshift (EGT, boost) Fuel pressure gauge from auto-meter. Stage 2 airbox, boost elbow, barrels & plungers turned.Custom fuel plate,Airdog 150gph.AFC mods & 3K GSK.SDX injectors (stage 3 140hp).Drilled wastegate.Converted to a NV4500 with a double disc. Being restored from the ground up


01' Cummins 2500 (dads) with a Hotrod pump,100hp injectors, Fass 150, Edge juice with attitude,also plug and power chip,stage 2 ice box,4 1/2 exgaust pipe,HX40

Riding Dirty #60
B.O.M.B Squad #79
Singles Club #260
Special thanks too


http://www.southerndieselx.com/
xtremediesel.com
dieselperformance.com
cptrucks.com
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-27-2009, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSpeeDEMONSS View Post
i dont think that equation is exactly correct for GPH. 67gph for 650hp? maybe at 100% efficiency. using that equation, an AD-100 would be able to support 960hp. i think not.

Garrett
Well is there another formula out there for checking or getting an idea? You have to add 25% because the turbo. I pulled this from Aeromotive's site:



#501 Fuel Pumps and Horsepower: What to consider when selecting a fuel pump.

Fuel Pumps and Horsepower: What to consider when selecting a fuel pump.

The critical factors that effect fuel pump selection are numerous. In the past, fuel pump manufacturers have rated their offerings based on gallons-per-hour, free-flow (no test pressure), and with no reference to test voltage. In the real world, this gave no indication of the horsepower that could be supported by such a pump. By choosing to assign a horsepower rating, along with publishing flow information at actual pressures and realistic voltages, Aeromotive has again broken the mold and raised the bar for the industry. Examining the Aeromotive catalog reveals that each pump carries several HP ratings on the basis of application and use of power adders. The purpose of this tech bulletin is to discuss the variables that effect how much HP a fuel pump can support and what to consider when evaluating this for the engine/power adder combination.

The key variables that determine which fuel pump is suitable for a particular engine combination are: Engine flywheel horsepower. Engine fuel efficiency, commonly referred to as BSFC or Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. Maximum fuel system pressure and the pumps flow volume at that pressure. Available voltage at the pump under engine load and the pumps flow volume at that voltage.

The first step is to establish how much horsepower will be made and the amount of fuel required to support it. To be safe, start by estimating HP on the high side and efficiency or BSFC on the low side. A typical gasoline engine will use less than 1lb of fuel to make 1 HP for 1 hour, so expect the BSFC number to be less than 1. Different engine combinations, power adders, even fuel octane ratings and tuning approaches will have a profound impact on BSFC. Consider this carefully when choosing a fuel pump.

You may use the following information as a guideline, however these are simply observations. The best, and our recommended, method of establishing actual BSFC is through proper flywheel dyno testing. Naturally aspirated engines are normally most efficient with a BSFC between .4 and .5 lbs/hp/hr. Nitrous combinations use a little extra fuel and often develop a BSFC from .5 to .6 lbs/hp/hr. Forced induction engines are usually least efficient and BSFC ranges from .6 to .75 lbs/hp/hr.



Using 650 HP, let’s figure the fuel requirement for the most vs. the least efficient engine combination. 650 HP multiplied by a .4 BSFC equals 260 lbs of gasoline. 650 HP multiplied by a .75 BSFC equals 487 lbs of gasoline.

As you can see, the amount of fuel required to support two different engines, each making the identical amount of HP but with very different fuel efficiencies, virtually doubles the volume of fuel required!

Note: It is equally important to consider BSFC when determining minimum injector size. To calculate, divide the lbs of gasoline required by the number of injectors used. If you are estimating, it pays to be safe. Many engine builders will add a percentage to total fuel pump volume for safety and then divide the minimum injector by .8 in order to target about 80% injector duty cycle. This allows consistent injector performance, cooler operation for enhanced durability and leaves about 10% for unexpected power.

For example: 650HPx.4 = 260lbs. 260lbs/8 injectors=33lbs/hr. 33/.8=41lb/hr injector @ 80% duty cycle. 650HPx.75=487lbs. 487lbs/8 injectors=61lbs/hr. 61/.8=76lbs/hr injector @ 80% duty cycle.

It is imperative to consult with an experienced engine builder when estimating HP and making these calculations. There’s a lot at stake and errors can result in serious harm to the engine and those around it.

Determining the fuel volume necessary for a particular engine is the first step in selecting a fuel pump. If the combination is naturally aspirated, does not use rising fuel system pressure and has a correctly sized alternator in good working condition it may be OK to stop here. If not, there’s still more to consider.

The second step is to establish what the base fuel pressure will be and if, as with forced induction or certain “dry nitrous” kits, pressure will be required to change with engine load. How does fuel pressure affect pump delivery? You can bet that as system pressure goes up the pump’ volume will go down.

To illustrate this, take one of the most popular and efficient EFI pumps on the market, Aeromotive’ A-1000 part #11101. Lets examine various pressures to demonstrate the effect this has on flow volume: Carbureted, Nat Aspirated, 9psi and 13.5v, volume 791lbs/hr. 1,582 HP @ .5 BSFC. EFI, Nat. Aspirated 43.5psi and 13.5v, volume 614lbs/hr. 1,228 HP @ .5 BSFC. 20psi boost/1:1 Regulator, intercooler, 60psi and 13.5v, volume 529lbs/hr. 881 HP @ .6 BSFC 10psi boost/4:1 FMU, intercooler, 80psi and 13.5v, volume 426lbs/hr. 710 HP @ .6 BSFC 6psi boost/8:1 FMU, intercooler, 91psi and 13.5v, volume 370lbs/hr. 616 HP @ .6 BSFC

Measuring a high efficiency Aeromotive pump such as the A-1000, from 9psi to over 90psi, flow volume is reduced a total of 53%. Comparing volume at 60psi for a high boost kit with correct injectors to 90psi for a low boost application, with small injectors and an FMU, volume is reduced by 28%. Clearly the effect of rising fuel pressure has significant impact on flow volume. What is not shown (and rarely published) is the devastating impact this has on less efficient, traditional pumping mechanisms used by much of the competition. It is obvious that eliminating unnecessary fuel pressure rise, e.g. removing an FMU and installing the correct injector, increases flow, maximizing the HP potential of any fuel system.

Please note, in the case of Aeromotive’ published pump/HP ratings, compensating for low fuel octane or small injectors with unusual system pressure cannot be anticipated and a larger fuel pump may be required. Graphs for all Aeromotive fuel pumps can be found in our catalog, illustrating flow volume across a reasonable pressure range. Please consult this information or call our tech line for assistance.

This brings us to our third fuel pump performance factor; voltage supply as measured at the fuel pump terminals. Voltage to an electric motor is like fuel pressure to an injector, more pressure in equals more volume out. Higher voltage at the pump terminals increases motor torque, resulting in more rpm and an increased flow volume for a given pressure. To illustrate this, the A-1000 Aeromotive fuel pump at 80psi will see a 40% increase in volume when voltage is increased from 12v to 13.5v. This factor is often overlooked and can make or brake pump performance, especially at high pressures. The key here is to figure flow at voltage if an alternator is used or not. Often deleted on drag cars, the presence or lack of a correctly sized and properly functioning alternator is vital to consider when choosing a fuel pump.


I know it's for gas engine but how much different will it be for a diesel. Any ideas? I can't find anything out there as a formula for figuring a diesel engine's fuel usage requirements.

-Phil-
98 2500 4x4,12V,47RE Suncoast Billet input shaft, Suncoast H/D Extreme Trans kit, Goerend Triple disc converter, FASS 150/90, FASS Suction tube, Amsoil Ea air and pre-filter, 100 plate, 4K GSK, 370's, AFC Mods, CoolerTubz intake, straight piped 4" DP to 5" stacks, BD-SBS, Autometer Z-series Pyro/Boost/Trans/FP, Amsoil Bypass system and Amsoil fluids bumper to bumper.
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