91 cummins in 69 crewcab dodge - Page 2 - Diesel Truck Forum - TheDieselGarage.com
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-01-2013, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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Update:
Today I changed the stock filter and replaced the O-rings.
Tried it again. Fuel line going into a 5 gal can. all connections triple checked and tightened. I added a vacuum gauge as suggested (though this adds 4 possible leak points). Primed with the priming handle until no air came out the bleeder. It is interesting to note that the vacuum gauge would go up a couple of points, and then immediately down again. I could tell when I was going to open the bleeder and get no air at all because the vacuum gauge wouldn't move. The more air there was in the system, the more the vacuum needle would move when I pumped.
Attempted to use the starter with the first 3 injectors cracked open. Air bubbles came out the first and 3rd injectors. It did eventually start for a few moments. Checked the bleeder after it died and there was air there.
Then my battery died.
It occurred to me to try an experiment: I pumped it up with the priming handle until no air came out. then I closed the bleeder and played with electrical issues for a half hour (oddly enough, the wiring diagram for the 69 dodge is wrong.. or at least doesn't match the wiring on MY 69 dodge.).
Then I opened the bleeder again. And lots of air spewed out.
So, as suspected and suggested on the list, I must still have a leak somewhere.

Does anyone have any clue how I can find WHERE it is? I've already done the pressure with soap bubbles and there's nothing showing up, so I'm at a loss.
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-02-2013, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memrys View Post
Update:
Today I changed the stock filter and replaced the O-rings.
Tried it again. Fuel line going into a 5 gal can. all connections triple checked and tightened. I added a vacuum gauge as suggested (though this adds 4 possible leak points). Primed with the priming handle until no air came out the bleeder. It is interesting to note that the vacuum gauge would go up a couple of points, and then immediately down again. I could tell when I was going to open the bleeder and get no air at all because the vacuum gauge wouldn't move. The more air there was in the system, the more the vacuum needle would move when I pumped.
Attempted to use the starter with the first 3 injectors cracked open. Air bubbles came out the first and 3rd injectors. It did eventually start for a few moments. Checked the bleeder after it died and there was air there.
Then my battery died.
It occurred to me to try an experiment: I pumped it up with the priming handle until no air came out. then I closed the bleeder and played with electrical issues for a half hour (oddly enough, the wiring diagram for the 69 dodge is wrong.. or at least doesn't match the wiring on MY 69 dodge.).
Then I opened the bleeder again. And lots of air spewed out.
So, as suspected and suggested on the list, I must still have a leak somewhere.

Does anyone have any clue how I can find WHERE it is? I've already done the pressure with soap bubbles and there's nothing showing up, so I'm at a loss.
Sounds like your lift pump to me. That vacuum indication should not drop for about 15 minutes. Those pumps have a diaphragm, and check valves than can be bad, or fouled by foreign matter.

The question I seek an answer for is simply; why, or why not?
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-02-2013, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Backslap View Post
Sounds like your lift pump to me. That vacuum indication should not drop for about 15 minutes. Those pumps have a diaphragm, and check valves than can be bad, or fouled by foreign matter.
Next time I get to work on it, I was thinking I'd disconnect the pump and hook the gauge directly to the vacuum side instead of T'd into the line. If it fails then, I'll pull the pump off and cap off the output and try the gauge on the vacuum side. If that fails, then I'll have to return the pump, since it's new. At least then I'd have the answer.

thanks.
now the difficulty is that I have to wait a whole week before I get to work on it.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-02-2013, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by memrys View Post
Next time I get to work on it, I was thinking I'd disconnect the pump and hook the gauge directly to the vacuum side instead of T'd into the line. If it fails then, I'll pull the pump off and cap off the output and try the gauge on the vacuum side. If that fails, then I'll have to return the pump, since it's new. At least then I'd have the answer.

thanks.
now the difficulty is that I have to wait a whole week before I get to work on it.
This is what I was indicating in an earlier post. You want to "dead end" the suction side of the pump into a vacuum gauge. You don't want any rubber fuel line except the small sections necessary to connect the gauge into it. This test is not to use trying to start the engine; only to test the integrity of the pump itself on the suction side.

The question I seek an answer for is simply; why, or why not?
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2013, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Backslap View Post
This is what I was indicating in an earlier post. You want to "dead end" the suction side of the pump into a vacuum gauge. You don't want any rubber fuel line except the small sections necessary to connect the gauge into it. This test is not to use trying to start the engine; only to test the integrity of the pump itself on the suction side.
I had about an hour and a half this weekend to work on the truck, so next update:
hooked a vacuum gauge up to the inlet side of the pump. attempted to pump it up, and it held for about 5 seconds. Pulled the pump off, and tried it again, blocking the output side. Still held for only seconds. Took the fuel pump back and got another.
for a variety of reasons, I didn't get to test the pump while out of the truck. Mounted it one day, being careful not to crack it, and the next day got to test. Pumped to 10 inches of vacuum, it holds for 10 minutes. Not sure if that's good or not.
I hooked up the complete fuel system (too damn cold to crawl in the dirt under the truck and disconnect the fuel line to run it into the gas can if I don't have to, and I've repeatedly checked all those connections with soapy water... not that soapy water found the bad lift pump), primed it until there were no bubbles, opened the first three injectors and cranked it over with the starter for 5 seconds.
Then I opened the bleeder nut. air came out.
repeat operation. next time less air came out.
repeat operation. this time the truck started up for about 10 seconds, running very poorly. injector 1 and 3 spraying diesel everywhere, but lots of fine bubbles running down the nut. checked the bleeder, no air came out this time.
repeat again. exactly the same results as the previous time.
Repeat this about a dozen times with the same results. On one occasion a small amount of bubbles came out the bleeder. On every occasion, the 1 and 3 injectors spew diesel and lots of fine bubbles.
Since nothing was changing, I went a different route.
crank the truck over for 5 seconds, or until it starts, then when it dies, open each injector in turn, starting at the front.
This results in various injectors leaking bubbles and diesel as they get opened. Most of the time, the engine starts and runs poorly for about 10-15 seconds. number 2 and number 6 injectors never spew anything.
then I decided I was cold, and nothing I was doing was making any difference. If I knew I was accomplishing something, I'd be fine with continuing, but the 30th attempt produced exactly the same results (which injector produces diesel and bubbles seems to be relative to where the engine stops in its timing cycle).

Sigh.. it seems like the hardest part of this swap is going to be getting the fuel system to work.

So again I'm wondering 1) if I have a leak still, 2) If I do, how do I find it, and now 3) apparently 2 injectors aren't getting any fuel; how do I fix that?

Thank you again
John
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by memrys View Post
I had about an hour and a half this weekend to work on the truck, so next update:
hooked a vacuum gauge up to the inlet side of the pump. attempted to pump it up, and it held for about 5 seconds. Pulled the pump off, and tried it again, blocking the output side. Still held for only seconds. Took the fuel pump back and got another.
for a variety of reasons, I didn't get to test the pump while out of the truck. Mounted it one day, being careful not to crack it, and the next day got to test. Pumped to 10 inches of vacuum, it holds for 10 minutes. Not sure if that's good or not.
I hooked up the complete fuel system (too damn cold to crawl in the dirt under the truck and disconnect the fuel line to run it into the gas can if I don't have to, and I've repeatedly checked all those connections with soapy water... not that soapy water found the bad lift pump), primed it until there were no bubbles, opened the first three injectors and cranked it over with the starter for 5 seconds.
Then I opened the bleeder nut. air came out.
repeat operation. next time less air came out.
repeat operation. this time the truck started up for about 10 seconds, running very poorly. injector 1 and 3 spraying diesel everywhere, but lots of fine bubbles running down the nut. checked the bleeder, no air came out this time.
repeat again. exactly the same results as the previous time.
Repeat this about a dozen times with the same results. On one occasion a small amount of bubbles came out the bleeder. On every occasion, the 1 and 3 injectors spew diesel and lots of fine bubbles.
Since nothing was changing, I went a different route.
crank the truck over for 5 seconds, or until it starts, then when it dies, open each injector in turn, starting at the front.
This results in various injectors leaking bubbles and diesel as they get opened. Most of the time, the engine starts and runs poorly for about 10-15 seconds. number 2 and number 6 injectors never spew anything.
then I decided I was cold, and nothing I was doing was making any difference. If I knew I was accomplishing something, I'd be fine with continuing, but the 30th attempt produced exactly the same results (which injector produces diesel and bubbles seems to be relative to where the engine stops in its timing cycle).

Sigh.. it seems like the hardest part of this swap is going to be getting the fuel system to work.

So again I'm wondering 1) if I have a leak still, 2) If I do, how do I find it, and now 3) apparently 2 injectors aren't getting any fuel; how do I fix that?

Thank you again
John
Keep at it would be my advice as you are gaining. My theory was proven on the lift pump but I still suspect you have bad, or gummy fuel in the distributor section of the injection pump. If it will start and run, (albiet badly) let it continue to do so to build some heat in the engine and get things loosened up. I think the problem may right itself but you really need to get your gas can supply rigged up to eliminate the possibility of the supply problem being the truck. I'm thinking your engine uses a first generation "VE" series pump and they do not use individual pumping elements to acheive injection pressure. With some fuel being delivered to a few injectors but not all, tells me something is plugged in the distibution portion of the pump if I understand your descriptions correctly.

I'd like to see some photos of your setup if you could post.

The question I seek an answer for is simply; why, or why not?
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 02:17 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Backslap View Post
Keep at it would be my advice as you are gaining. My theory was proven on the lift pump but I still suspect you have bad, or gummy fuel in the distributor section of the injection pump. If it will start and run, (albiet badly) let it continue to do so to build some heat in the engine and get things loosened up. I think the problem may right itself but you really need to get your gas can supply rigged up to eliminate the possibility of the supply problem being the truck. I'm thinking your engine uses a first generation "VE" series pump and they do not use individual pumping elements to acheive injection pressure. With some fuel being delivered to a few injectors but not all, tells me something is plugged in the distibution portion of the pump if I understand your descriptions correctly.

I'd like to see some photos of your setup if you could post.
next time I work on it, we'll see if I can't keep it running. at 10 seconds at a time, it'll take a while to build up heat.
will the plugging take care of itself if I can do that?

I keep trying to attach pics, and it goes to the attachment window, but never attaches the selected files. the window goes blank and never loads.
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 03:06 AM
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next time I work on it, we'll see if I can't keep it running. at 10 seconds at a time, it'll take a while to build up heat.
will the plugging take care of itself if I can do that?

I keep trying to attach pics, and it goes to the attachment window, but never attaches the selected files. the window goes blank and never loads.
Send me a pm to reply to.

The question I seek an answer for is simply; why, or why not?
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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