[chloeourdog]

Hi All,

5th Wheel:
Forest River mid-profile Wildcat 29BHBP - 12'9" high by 32' length - pulling nose high by 2", weighing ~10.5K empty, 11K with what we keep in year around and 12-12.5K fully loaded with water tank full.

Truck:
2005 Chevy 3500 SRW Crew Cab LT 4x4 bought in Jan. 2005
Modifications to address high ECT and fan:

• KB modified CAI (has 4" spring-loaded flap in addition to fender air feed - shrouded to front headlight area.)
• KB Shrouds and Stack Seal
• TD-EOC with Mocal Thermostat and Air Dam
• Edge EZ- level 1 - may help or may hurt temps ....

July 8, 2006
Received my TD-EOC - started disassembling truck for install

July 9,10 2006
Perform install of TD-EOC, verify no oil leaks, etc.

July 11-12
Hook up camper and tow in 98-100 degree heat around Baltimore, Ellicott City (hills but no speed.) Tow about 60 miles to verify no problems. Camper is not fully loaded (estimate weight was 11Klbs for camper.) Bed of truck empty, one passenger + driver.

• WIND (non-existent)
• ECT (cycled from 185-195 with excursions to 203)
• FAN (none except during startup - normal morning sickness syndrome)
• TRANNY (162 during highway driving with max of 187 while doing slow city/hill driving in Ellicott City, MD)
• AC (Cold - will not mention this any more because it is noticeably cooler with the TD-EOC - maybe the air-dam is forcing more air through the stack.)
• REMARKS (Am I towing anything??? Tranny and ECT are like I'm not towing.)

July 23
Leave for camping trip with fully loaded camper, generator, extra fuel, firewood, 3 passengers + driver, full tank (41 gallons) fresh water. Estimate camper weight was 12.5K - hopefully not more because I would be exceeding axle ratings of camper Drove up I81 from Maryland to top of New York (Thousand Islands region) Climbed mountains through PA. Trip was ~450 miles to destination. Outside temperature was cool (75 to 85 degrees)

• WIND (5-10 mph at 45 degree towards front/right of vehicle)
• ECT (cycled from 185-195 with excursions to 203 - would return to 185-195 cycling within 2-3 miles after reaching crests of climbs.)
• FAN (none except during startup - normal morning sickness syndrome)
• TRANNY (162 during highway driving with max of 175 while climbing PA mountains. Returned to 162 after climbs.)
• MPG (10.5 mpg hand-calculated with myself driving 65-75 miles an hour through PA, 11.5 mpg hand calculated with my wife driving through NY - flat.)
• REMARKS (Last year same trip was 10 degrees warmer outside, hit 235+ degrees with fan roaring on PA mountain climbs and flat road through Syracuse. Camper was less loaded last year.)

August 4
Drove from Thousand Islands to Maxville, Ontario (Near Ottawa). Flat ground, some highway and some country roads. Leg was about 130 miles. Went to Glengarry Highland Games - what a blast! Temps were in the low 90s, very humid too. Campground had no hookups - glad we had the generator.

• WIND (none)
• ECT (cycled from 185-195 throughout whole trip.)
• FAN (none)
• TRANNY (162 during highway driving with 187 max while waiting at a railroad crossing.)
• MPG (12.5 mpg from DIC - did not get fuel on this leg of trip - @$4.40 a gallon in Canada no way! Speed was anywhere from max 62mph to 30mph on some of the country roads.)
• REMARKS (Canada has much better highways with respect to larger shoulders, etc - Quebec drivers were crazy - passing us on country roads.)

August 6
Drove from Maxville, Ontario to Whiteface Mountain, Lake Placid NY. Leg was about 200 miles. Temps on Canada and beginning of New York were 90 degrees dropping to 75 degrees in Lake Placid. Roads were highway but not interstates. I still maintained 65 mph when possible. Some 6-8% grades going through Adirondak mountains - I followed my GPS and took some small road with 6-10% grade for 2 miles (I hammered it up the grade - WOT for about two minutes and max speed of 48 mph - ~3K rpms) road ended up turning into a dirt road .... ECT did stay at 203, not 210 like I expected .... DIC mpg was 12.4 before climb and 9.8mpg after - with 1/4 tank of fuel left .... had to turn around and go back to main road - 20 miles out of way and glad I had grade braking on allison. Forgot to drain Fresh water tank and had to carry ~25 gallons each in Black, Grey and Galley tanks for this leg, so add at least 500-600 lbs to camper - no place to dump tanks. Drove at least 250 miles unloaded not towing .... around the Olympic village area(s).

• WIND (none)
• ECT (cycled from 185-195 with excursions to 203 during steep climbs.)
• FAN (none)
• TRANNY (162 during highway driving with 187 max while climbing steep grades - quickly returning to 175 then 162 and finally 150 degrees in Lake Placid.)
• MPG (11.1 mpg hand Calculated - filled up about 30 miles from Lake Placid region. After fill-up averaged 12.9 mpg on DIC to campground near White Face mountain.)
• REMARKS (Did climb WhiteFace mountain not towing - 8 mile trip with 1 mile climb - very steep.)

August 11
Return Leg from WhiteFace Mountain to Cooksville, MD. Drove I87 to I88 to I81. I87 was through the mountains, I88 had some decent climbs, and I81 had the PA mountains since I took it from lower NY back to MD. Lots of driving (over 550 miles) and higher speeds (75-77 mph when possible.) Fresh water tank empty, holding tanks drained, most of food eaten Outside temps were only 80-85 degrees - cooler than expected.

• WIND (none)
• ECT (again, cycled from 185-195 with excursions to 203 during steep climbs. Stats cycled all the way home - surprised to see them cycle after 9 hours of towing at high speeds.)
• FAN (none)
• TRANNY (150 during highway driving with 187 max while climbing steep grades - quickly returning to 175 then 150.)
• MPG (12.4 mpg hand Calculated on first fill-up, 13mpg on DIC when returning home. Downhill from lower PA to MD.)
• REMARKS (Lots of climbing power with Edge-EZ - not much downshifting.)

My conclusions:
1) Be aware of Walmart when buying 5W40 Shell Rotella Synthetic oil. Did an oil change in NY and bought 2 gallons of 5W40 that had broken metal foil seals - oil did not pour as easily as the 3rd gallon which was un-opened. I had to get someone to return 30 miles to Walmart to get 2 more gallons of sealed oil - I think someone replaced the Synthetic oil with something cheaper and much thicker .... then returned it.
2) TD-EOC does not suffer from drainback - 2nd oil change of oil (see above) a day later after sitting overnight - still got over 2 quarts out of EOC.
3) TD-EOC definitely did its job well - seeing tranny temps averaging 162 while towing is great - used to average 187 to 200 degrees with excursions to 215 or more. Seeing tstats cycle on ECT gauge while towing shows that the Oil cooler is actually cooling the engine substantially - I used to get excursions to 235 when climbing 6% grades towing.
4) NO FAN on whole trip towing (this is unexpected - I have always had some fan towing up grades even in 68 degree weather.)
5) I read where others also have seen the tstats cycle with the TD-EOC - I still have a concern I may need a warmer stat in the MOCAL because maybe I am overcooling things a little?

DISCLAIMER: I have never claimed to be an overheater - I would always back-out of the go pedal when the fan came on or I saw my ECT gauge move towards 235 degrees. I never let my truck get past 235 although if I continued to keep speed I am sure I would have in a couple of cases. My 5th wheel is considered lighter weight than what some people pull but it still pushes a lot of air. I don't beat on my truck or try to push it to its limits and am unwilling to do so. I purchased the TD-EOC with my hard-earned money because I did not like seeing my ECT gauge go to 235 degrees when climbing some of the local grades while towing. The fan roaring did not annoy me too much because I know it was needed to cool things down and it was not as overactive as others have reported. I have nothing to prove at this point - I personally am happy with the results of the TD-EOC - it has cured MY issues for what I use my truck for. I now don't have a need to look further for any other 'solutions.' The TD-EOC has done the job for MY truck towing MY camper with MY driving style. Others may feel the need to debate this and try to negate everything I have stated above - maybe whatever solution they have purchased is not working for their needs. The only reason I have taken the time to provide the details above is that as an early adoptor of the TD-EOC I wanted others to have a reference point before they make their own decision on how to keep their LLY from getting too hot. :Thumbup:

 

[TheBac]

Great post. Very informative!

 

[AZMAX]

Good Post! Looks good.

 

[Diesel Tech]

cooksvillewildc

You have written a nice report but I do have one question that I hope you would answer for me. What gauges did you use to do your monitoring with?

 

[firedoger]

KB has been trying to arange another test with my truck for a good while but I have been real busy with work and family and I haven't had the time to make it happen. I normally put in 56hrs a week then add overtime and it can get up to 80 or more hrs a week. KB is not scared of my truck !!!!( I however am scared of my truck. I never khow what it might do) BSanders

 

[chloeourdog]

cooksvillewildc

You have written a nice report but I do have one question that I hope you would answer for me. What gauges did you use to do your monitoring with?

OEM ECT gauge was what I used. Go ahead - fire away opcorn:

Used the rear-view mirror gauge for OAT.

 

[killerbee]

:sofa

I like it. No more blood pressure spikes as the tall grade approaches.

 

[TheBac]

OEM ECT gauge was what I used. Go ahead - fire away opcorn:

Used the rear-view mirror gauge for OAT.

In other words, the same gauges that most any ordinary person would use.


I think in the end, every O/H problem is as individual as the truck owner. People have different views of what O/H is.
Whether that person finds his solution with either one of the known fixes or comes up with one on his own, thats up to him to decide. We are not all scientists here.

 

[killerbee]

The only reason I have taken the time to provide the details above is that as an early adoptor of the TD-EOC I wanted others to have a reference point before they make their own decision on how to keep their LLY from getting too hot. :Thumbup:

I am happy it was a victory for you Mark. Very thorough, integral report.:Thumbup:

I have a few questions:

1. How many total fans were installed for this trip?

2. Was the noise level changed for this trip, vs others?

3. Considering your prior experiences with rising ECT, and comparing with others that have reported similar heatup experiences, do you think the TD-EOC will solve OH issues for anyone towing legal loads on public roads? Why?

4. Is there any way that the TD-EOC did not meet expectation, or could be improved?

5. Will you change your oil change intervals as a result of what you are seeing?

6. Do you have an opinion on oil grade for this modification? Would you feel comfortable using conventional now?

7. On your trip, did you try to get ECT to rise, as you have seen before, a stress test per se?

:thanks:

 

[Diesel Tech]

OEM ECT gauge was what I used. Go ahead - fire away opcorn:

Used the rear-view mirror gauge for OAT.

I have no dog in this debate, just need to know what was used. Since an OEM coolant or transmission gauge will not read the values you've posted I will take it for what it is worth. Just so you know the OEM gauge does not read as a linear gauge. It reads in steps. So when the gauge is in one position it will step to the next once it reaches the set point. If you were to watch the gauge on a dyno (so we can watch the gauge and not the road) as we have you would see it sits still then all at once move to the next point. On my personal trucks it seems to be about one line each movement. The problem is at the lower portion of the gauge each step is about 12* and in the middle it's about 35* per step. Never ran higher than in the middle nor have I tried to figure them out completely. In order to get the readings you reported you would have needed to use the data stream information or had external gauges that would read numbers like you have offered.

I am truly glad your happy with your purchase and its solved your issue but one needs to report all the facts not just part of them so others can compare for themselves.

 

[killerbee]

Water-900 lbs, 3 weeks of food-200 lbs, BS-priceless

I have spoken to Mark Haney personally several times, over a 2 year period. He has been very informative with feedback on any of the ideas I have suggested, or products he has purchased.

You will not find a more honest person anywhere!

 

[stevebos]

I personally am happy with the results of the TD-EOC - it has cured MY issues for what I use my truck for... The TD-EOC has done the job for MY truck towing MY camper with MY driving style. Others may feel the need to debate this and try to negate everything I have stated above...

Its not a load that any Duramax owner would consider heavy.

I would; in my experience, I 've learned it depends on driving style and conditions.

I tow a Tahoe 33 WTB FW; 15,500 max GVWR per the manufacturer's website. Tow speed is 55 - 60 mph; trailer is used when OATs are relatively cool; November thru May. Fan engages 100% only during climbs.

I also tow a 22 foot ski boat; approximately 3,000 lbs. Tow speed is 65 - 70 mph; trailer is used when OATs are relatively hot; June thru September. Fan engagement at 100% cycles on and off continuously.

My point is this. I believe most would agree:

1. Accuracy in reporting is important.

2. Thermal load on the LLY cooling system is the result of vehicle weight and many more variables.

3. In evaluating a forest, there is little value in focusing critique on one tree.

 

[Diesel Tech]

Anyone that knows me knows I am a stickler when it comes to repeatable testing. You have to be if you want to learn something from the data reported. You should be able to repeat the same test over and over and get the same results and if you cannot then you need to determine why. That's the only reason I spent any time at all with the OEM gauges. Our customers report things back to us and I need to understand what they are saying and the gauges drove me nuts until I spent the time to see what was happening with them. Now they are used only as a reference point when a customer reports to us as I know what they do and do not do. To try and point out temperature changes like 182 Vs 185 just is not going to happen, just like 220 Vs 235 is not going to happen using the factory gauge in a Duramax. It gives you an indication of the area the temperature is in and that's it!

 

[chloeourdog]

Just to clarify things:

SCCOTech
Come on now, this isn't rocket science! A quick trip to the manufacturer website will show anyone the trailer is 8,130 lbs empty which is a long way from 10.5k as is being told. Its not 12'9" either, more like 11" with a nice downhill sloped and rounded front.

About my trailer weight:
According to Forest River, a 'STRIPPED' base model 29BHBP is 8130 lbs. I purchased mine with every option available. My sticker states my camper has a dry weight of 9370 lbs.

My estimated empty weight is not dry weight .... I keep alot of stuff in the camper all the time ....

I had it weighed in December 2005 because I was pulling nose high and was worried about too much weight on the rear axle (btw, my axle ratings are higher than what is listed in the Wildcat Brochure also - found out when I repacked the bearing this spring). So I feel SCCOtech's comment deserved clarification. Also, I had the following items on this trip:
Kipppor 3500 watt Generator full of fuel (132 lbs)
20 gallons of gasoline (160 lbs)
5 bikes and a bike trailer (180 lbs)
full tank of fresh water (336 lbs) (42 gallons)
3 weeks of clothes for a family of 4 and about 2 weeks of groceries including 5 cases (28 [email protected] ounces each) of bottled water (~Come on now, this isn't rocket science! A quick trip to the manufacturer website will show anyone the trailer is 8,130 lbs empty which is a long way from 10.5k as is being told. Its not 12'9" either, more like 11" with a nice downhill sloped and rounded front.200 lbs).

When I was in Canada, we almost filled the galley, grey and black tanks (I have a 32 gallon water bladder I filled 3 times at the water truck servicing the Glengarry Highland games where I dry-camped.) They had no dump station. Assuming I was not adding additional liquid to the tanks, that comes to over 720 lbs going into my tanks.

Now lets talk height - that is an easy one:


SCCOtech was MISTAKEN when he quoted 11' height. The Forest River brochure stated 12' to AC top, I measured 12'9" (I have added 4" blocks above my axles to provide greater bed-rail clearance - still pull a little nose high since I wanted to have 8-9" bed rail clearance.

Feel free to go to the following web site for the specs:
http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/fifthwheels/wildcat/brochures/2006wildcateast.pdf

As for the OEM tranny gauge, the steps per graduation are 12.5 degrees

The OEM ECT gauge has 6.25 degree steps, so the large tick mark is 185 (easy to identify) and the next one is 191 or 192 (what I generally refer to as 195 since it is easier to remember), the next one is 203 and straight up is 210 degrees. This should also clarify some of the nit-picking.

I won't debate the shape of my camper - it looks like almost any other mid-profile 5th wheel on the market today. oke:

 

[Diesel Tech]

As for the OEM tranny gauge, the steps per graduation are 12.5 degrees

The OEM ECT gauge has 6.25 degree steps, so the large tick mark is 185 (easy to identify) and the next one is 191 or 192 (what I generally refer to as 195 since it is easier to remember), the next one is 203 and straight up is 210 degrees. This should also clarify some of the nit-picking.

While the marks are there and you assume they are 6.25 degree marks as I did until we found out about the troubles with the gauge. The fact that it does not move in a linear fashion but in a step fashion is the problem. Like I said before you did not know about the gauge issue but you do now!

 

[stevebos]

Well, that's why there are different opinions...

:agreed:

I'm on the left coast; where it just turned 5:00PM. That is, if I can trust the accuracy of my clock... ( :roflmao: :jk)

Time to pop a tall, cold Coors Light. Too bad you're north; I'd get two...:HappyMugs

 

[idahofox]

Did anyone say " This is a Test ".

I thought it was a family vacation.

 

[idahofox]

I tow @ ~ 24500, and I have scale tickets !

Sow What ?

 

[TheBac]

Did anyone say " This is a Test ".

I thought it was a family vacation.

LOL Yep. Since we aren't all "rocket scientists", I'd say his "everyman" detail was just fine.

I tow @ ~ 24500, and I have scale tickets !

Sow What ?

Ok, so why doesn't your truck overheat? Thats not a mock, Fox, but it would be interesting to know.

 

[idahofox]

LOL Yep. Since we aren't all "rocket scientists", I'd say his "everyman" detail was just fine.




Ok, so why doesn't your truck overheat? Thats not a mock, Fox, but it would be interesting to know.

I view it as a legitimate question.

First: I Use but do not abuse my truck.

Second: I know how to drive a diesel.

Frankly, I could Over Heat my truck; my Right foot is well disciplined.

This is Not Smart *** !

FWIW.