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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #1
OP:

Just typed a big post and lost it

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lost my post.

Still the best place to go for info on our trucks.

The truck; 2006 F350 CC 6.0L, auto, Edge tuner, cat gone, see through muffler, EGR blocked off, CCV reroute to road dump,K&N filter, Garrett Power Max Performance Turbo (GT3788VA), Stage 1, from KT Performance installed just before leaving home.

The problem; after setting for a month I took the truck out for a driver while I worked on the Jetta, after several hundred miles of use I now get a white smoke at idle. Coming into the park at idle all is well until I hit the first spped bump then it goes to smoking, can do a light rev to 1200 and it quits, until I get to my space and it starts again. Can smell any sweet smell or acid smell and no burning eyes, can't define any particular fuel or coolent smells at all. No loss of coolent in over a year, no excessive coolent pressure, no loss or gain in the oil level, no excessive road draft fumes. Pulled the egr valve and it is dry, no coolent or oil, and has just a light dusting of dry soot. Manifold below the egr os the same. Pulled the innercooler to engine tube (the top one) and it is dry as a bone, did a FICM test and it is 49.8 volts. Set up the edge to read ECT-EOT and after a warm up run had 188 water and 200 oil for a five mile slight uphill pull, then a 186 water and 201 oil for anothe five miles on the same uphill pull. When driving slower (15mph) the water goes to 186 and the oil goes to 194, then idle into the park and it hits the first bump and goes to smoking, light rev and its gone, then it sometimes smokes when I get to my site and sometimes not.

What is my next step????

Thanks for any help offered.


2nd post:

Did I stump the experts?

Should also correct the post by saying that I cannot determine from the smell of the smoke any hint of coolent or fuel. Smoke is white with a very slight hint of blue, like oil smoke.


3rd Post:

Talking to KT Performance now to see if they have an answer or solution to my problem.


TMT wrote:

I've got a similar issue, except no bump needed. AE tests show no issues. I've had a high amount of smoke at first start with a blue component. No visible issues with the EGR passages. Pulled the turbo and no issues with the oil seal. Put on my spare new turbo and no change. Talked to the truck assistant service manager who I've known for years and he said change out the EGR valve even though it tests and looks good.

That took care of the large amount of smoke/vapor at initial start. But now I still have residual light blue smoke, some when driving but occasionally a slight to far amount of it at stops until the motor is up to 190.

Harry wrote:

When I try to read the first page of this thread I get a weird message on the screen then it kicks me out of the TDG site, this only happens on the first page of this thread, no other threads, so I can't read anything to answer anything.

To Largecar...maybe start a new thread about your trucks symptoms, then I can read it.

Is anybody else is experiencing this in this thread?

Harry


And that is why I am doing this copy paste stuff because I am a old fart that does not know how to do it a better way.


TMT wrote:

No problem viewing for me. But it's an old 2013 thread with Largecar adding to the thread at message #8.

KT Performance sent me this email:

"Did you check for leaks with the intercooler and up-pipes? That is a common failure for loss of boost pressure."

I responded:

I checked the exhaust side and found only one little soot trail at the clamp into the turbo, not enough to be of concern, no smell in cab. No leaks on the pressure side, checked all the hoses and pipes, inner cooler held 10 psi for over an hour ( I made two aluminum plugs one with a metal valve stem to put air in) and checked from turbo out to engine in. Just got back from my buddy at the Ford garage and he discovered that the turbo is slow to build pressure, said maybe the stator ring (I think that is what he called it) was binding or not smooth. He also said the smoke smelled to him like oil smoke and it had a slight blue tint to it. He also discovered the smoke came on quicker when idled in gear over idling in neutral or park. He said that the slight amount of pressure against the engine is what the difference would be. The truck has had the CCV vented to a road draft tube since almost new, so the hose into the manifold is dry, no oil residue. So we think the only place it is coming from is the turbo shaft seals. My question is would the seals work better with the turbo making pressure and not as well when it is in a not pressure state? I don't know so I will leave that up to the experts.

You might remember me as I sent a couple of emails to you just after I installed this turbo with complaints of low boost when towing my fifth wheel. I kind of got used to the way it functioned and quit worrying about it, but now it is a whole different set of circumstances. We pulled the fifth wheel out to Arizona and put the truck under a cover, only using if about once a month just to keep fluids circulated. It was this months run that the problems started. We will be going back to Oklahoma some time toward the end of April and don't want to worry about being broken down somewhere.

Let me know what your thoughts are.

Thanks
Glenn


That should bring us all up to date, thanks for the patience.
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
TooManyToys:

Mine is a bit different then yours because I don't get any smoke at start up, even if it is smoking when I shut down I don't get smoke at start up. When driving the exhaust appears to be clean and clear, except when I get in it then it is the normal black until the turbo catches up then it is clear again. Also it does not do it all the time, just whenever it takes a notion to get me POed.

I am really begining to think it is an turbin side seal that leaks when not under any exhaust pressure, then seals up when the pressure kicks in. I am leaning this way because it has to be up to running temps to smoke, wont do it at start up or when cold.

As a side note for those that have the GT3788VA turbo, does it seem to have a lot of lag? If I WOT from a stop it will be at least 20mph before the turbo starts to build boost, then it comes on like a freight train. At 50 MPH I can WOT and it and it takes at least 3 or 4 seconds to start to build boost. With the stock turbo (even with the torn up tubin blades) it would build boost fast enough to spin the tires at take off, with the GT3788VA i am clear across the intersection and down the road a bit before I get boost (the race is lost).
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
At level 1 or 2 on the EDGE it is a complete turd, 3 is a little better and 4 is almost drivable. I have 5 and 6 to go but hate driving around in them due to a stock transmission.

At 60 mph on level ground just cruising I am only making 1 to 2 pounds of boost.
 

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Sure sounds like the turbo needs to be rebuilt and maybe you need a different programmer (and/or custom tunes).
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #5
Sure sounds like the turbo needs to be rebuilt and maybe you need a different programmer (and/or custom tunes).
I know there is a programmer war, some like what they like for different reasons. I like my Edge.

I do agree with the turbo issue, it was a new one 13011 miles ago, just one trip on it. But it has been a sore point with me. It has IMO not been right since it was new.
 

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My advice has nothing to do with a "war" as you put it. It has to do with custom tunes to match your custom hardware.

Take or leave the advice - best of luck.
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #7
Should correct my post, I had an extra zero in the miles on the turbo, it has 1311 miles on it. Just one trip.
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
See if I can post a you tube link.

https://youtu.be/SvIQzehK6RI

The video is of the slow spooling turbo, if you count the shifts I am in third gear before the turbo his full boost. Is that slow or is it just me. The stock turbo, even when it was wounded built boost faster then the new one. Watch the video and give me your feedback.

Thanks
 

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I pasted this from the private message I sent you...

Hi Largecar,

Sorry, but I still can't answer on that thread, must me some kind of virus in the thread somewhere that affects my computer, I can't even type a few letters without it kicking me out.

Anyhow, I was able to read enough that heres my thoughts...

1. Check the egr valve first if you still have one thats active, a partially stuck open egr valve can cause yur symptoms.

2. Check the ebp (Exhaust Backpressure Sensor) sensor for clogging, it can cause low boost if clogged.

3. You have a PowerMax turbo, these turbos only function properly with custom tuning and do not work well if egr is still active...need an SCT programmer with custom tuning to remedy. Mike at KEM Performance tuned my PowerMax perfectly and I have had it for many years now with no issues, Innovative performance is another good choice too for custom tuning, both places sell SCT tuners and provide SCT custom tuning. Sorry, but it will never work correctly with the Edge tuner, also the SCT provides auto transm tuning to match the custom tunes, thats all included in a custom written tune, your truck will spool up and shift perfect with custom tuning.

Harry
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks Harry.
I did check the egr , cleaned it, tested it. All is good. I have the plug in the joint between the up pipe and the cooler so there is no flow through it.

Did not think to test the ebp sensor, will give that a try.

At least you gave me good reason and a better understanding on why I need to change tuners. Always like the edge because it has safeguards on it and can change programs on the fly. Maybe its time to look at something else

The truck is used (95% of the time) to haul the fifth wheel and a second trailer with a total combined weight of 18k to 20k depending on water in tanks and how many rocks the wife finds on our trips.

Thanks
 
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By jumping to conclusions with your wording of the "programmer wars" comment, it pretty much implied that any conversation on "why" was not needed or wanted. Harry is much more accomodating I guess - my compliments Harry.

Just to compete with Harry's helpfulness (lol) - PowerHungryPerformance is the only company I know of that will custom tune an Edge (they call it the Gryphon IIRC).
 
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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #12
Just to compete with Harry's helpfulness (lol) - PowerHungryPerformance is the only company I know of that will custom tune an Edge (they call it the Gryphon IIRC).
I went to PHP's site and all I can find with "Gryphon" attached to it was a Edge for the 2004-2008 F150. Ford did not put the 6.0 in the F150 to my knowledge. Maybe you found something that I cannot find, please post me a URL so I can find it also. I did see a lot of FICM programs, which I did not know that a FICM could be reprogrammed, so I did learn something. As to the "programmer war" comment I did not intend that it stifle the flow of information, I just remember that a few years ago the answer for everything was to "get the programmer I have because all others were junk" attitude.

I see the war may have run its course and is no longer in play.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Now thats the kind of news I needed, thanks bismic.

Looks to me like I need to get my infomation together and give Bill at shout.
 

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Stuck in Commiefornia...
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I'm going to chime in a bit here. The Powermax turbo was designed to replace the stock turbo, and can be used without custom tuning, but custom tuning makes it better. The difference is in the desired exhaust back pressure tables. The custom tune increases the desired back pressure as a means to force the vanes in the VGT turbo to close more at low engine speeds and during low exhaust back pressure conditions.

Now, all of that established, there are two things I would be concerned are affecting the shaft seal in that turbo. The first would be a blockage in the oil drain, maybe a seal from Garrett on the turbo drain wasn't removed restricting the turbo drain, the turbo drain itself having a blockage, or any other drain side issue increasing pressure on the oil drain side of the cartridge. The second possibility could be an actual shaft seal issue. It could be from assembly, but it could also be from a design related imbalance between the engine oil pressurized side and the turbine housing side pressure. Idling through your park and going over that first speed bump, you have less exhaust pressure in the housing than the seal would operate under with a stock turbine section, perhaps the lower than stock drive pressure is not letting the seal operate properly.

Just thoughts. I'm no expert on turbos, but I've seen some dumb things in 25 years under hoods.


Sent by my right thumb!
 

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Good post Idaho. As mentioned in an earlier post, I also believe there is an issue with the turbo.

That said, he has quite a bit more mods than a "drop in" turbo.: K&N intake, no cat, aftermarket muffler, no EGR, tuner. All this adds up to poor performance unless properly accounted for in the tuning. I know of quite a few folks unhappy w/ the PowerMax until they got the proper tuning.
 

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The P-max is a slightly larger turbo thats capable of moving more air once spooled up. Getting it to spool up quickly is the issue, and without good-proper tuning it is very laggy off the line.

When [email protected] tuned my P-max he bumped the idle icp up to 790psi, and along with the other changes he made in the programming my truck spools like a stock turbo off the line with no lag and pulls very nicely throughout the entire rpm range with more midrange and top end than the stock turbo. It does this with no smoke and the truck passes the bi-annual emission opacity test with very low readings out the tailpipe.

I agree that if there is a smoking issue, then it's from another source, or the tuning is incorrect for this setup. The P-max when used with stock tuning is horrible on the low end, low speed.

I even tried my old inline Hypertech device with the P-max when I first installed it, and it still didn't work right. It worked better than stock tuning, but is nowhere even close to good SCT custom tuning.

The transm shifting has alot to do also for spool up performance, and inline devices cannot do that like an SCT on the 6.0L, they require the transm to relearn on their own each time the power level is changed, which can take days and still not be right.

Harry
 
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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Discussion Starter #19
Good info all, thanks. The oil return pipe is the upgraded pipe and I was very careful not have doubled up on orings. I think the differential pressures is right on, that with maybe a bad/weak turbine side seal is the cause of the smoke. The entire intake side of the engine is dry as a bone, no traces of any fluids.

As for the proper programmer/tunes that also is spot on. At level four on the Edge the turbo spools up a lot quicker than on any level below it. As seen in the video when I was in level two (tow level) the spool is slow. Don't really want to tow in level four. You might also notice in the video the trans shifts pretty danged good.

I do have a email into Bill at PHP to see if he can do anything with my Edge, if not maybe it is time to step up for an SCT.

The plot thickens as the saga goes on.

Thanks all.
 

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Stuck in Commiefornia...
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Like anything, too, Garrett is capable of having an issue with a seal. Surely they have them wot OE units, so why not with a drop-in performance replacement. It could be that 1 in 10, 000 failure and it's on a truck where the owner happens to be looking closely.


Sent by my right thumb!
 
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