[blackcloudCTD95]

did he get any where with that law suit? i do give that truck credit.. running over 250* for 12 mins thats crazy..

 

[TheBac]

did he get any where with that law suit? i do give that truck credit.. running over 250* for 12 mins thats crazy..

Chris talks about it in his posts as the thread goes on. Another member posted this on the first page:

I haven't watched the video in a while but I think he was awarded $36,000 and keep his truck. I think that might of been his second motor. GM replaced his first one. It was funny reading all the posts on this and prove to GM that all LLY's will over heat given the right conditions. Thanks TxC and that old Dodge.

 

[diesel dan]

Ok, thats funny, and what you said is true, but not if you take into account the entire point of the video was to show in court that the truck will overheat if worked hard. If you slow down, or let off, or stop, it won't overheat, and you will not win your overheat case. Make sense?

Also, I didn't wonder why it went into limp mode, I knew exactly why. I was very low on fuel and was done video'ing already. But as I crested the hill right before that, it limped, so I grabbed the camera, played it to the hilt, and added it to the overheat video especially since it also allowed me to get in conversation with another Dmax owner talking about problems with his truck. Since I was so low on fuel it likely briefly uncovered the fuel pickup and threw the 1093. It wasn't because of the overheating or the fuel temp or anything else. But it was useful for painting a picture of a POS truck for a judge. :Thumbup:

If you still don't want to believe that someone would keep driving arrogantly to prove a point, I have over 30,000+ excellent reasons why. LOL

.

Sorry that I havent had time to reply to the thread. But, Im glad you came on here and pointed out the specifics of this whole ordeal, it makes a hell of a lot more sense. I was just figuring that it was some dumb*** on streetfire blowing his mouth off....LOL Now that I know the whole story I understand your point exactly....:Thumbup: Good victory!!:usflag

 

[Guest]

I was just figuring that it was some dumb*** on streetfire blowing his mouth off....LOL

Now Dan, like that ever happens on there. :shrug: opcorn: :sofa

 

[chloeourdog]

A question for TXChristopher:

Did you notice much of a difference between your original engine (with OEM intake) and the one GM replaced (with the GM CAI) with respect to thier ability to withstand overheating?

How would you characterize the new '06 GM CAI versus stock.

Besides tuning and CAI, did GM upgrade/change anything else with respect to the engine/cooling system on your truck?

-M

 

[TheBac]

Members...heed the advise of our Administrator.

The little jabs and nit-picking can stop at any time. I would really like to keep the useful information flowing here. If I ever do get another truck...its information like this that is incredibly useful.

While everyone is welcome here at the Garage, and we encourage a varied discussion on all topics, we just had to remove a post because it added absolutely nothing to this video discussion.

 

[TxChristopher]

A question for TXChristopher:

Did you notice much of a difference between your original engine (with OEM intake) and the one GM replaced (with the GM CAI) with respect to thier ability to withstand overheating?

How would you characterize the new '06 GM CAI versus stock.

Besides tuning and CAI, did GM upgrade/change anything else with respect to the engine/cooling system on your truck?

-M

Differences, original versus new:

As you know, I have very extensively tested and measured the overheat mechanism in the LLY. So immediately after they gave it back to me, I immediately ran up a bunch of miles to get beyond recommended break in points quoted in the GM manuals, changed the oil to eliminate the break in oil, then went straight to testing and measuring the new engine to see where it stood.

I found that it was equal to my original engine in initial rate of climb of ECT up to about 245* or so, at which point the newer engine, supposedly immune to overheat according to GM, actually did develop an advantage. It presented a very slow, deliberate increase in ECT beyond 245* with a longer and longer interval between each successive degree of ECT rise. However testing revealed peak engine temp was still reliant on ambient temperature, so I knew I could still overheat it but that my normal test load which was my boat, and my test route, the Fred Hartman Bridge, would be incapable of overheating it. That combo lacked both sufficient load and especially duration to get the job done in a way that would be "acceptable" to present in a court setting. The initial testing and graphs are covered in "Angle of Attack" at my site.

I haven't had time to verify programming play completely yet, but I am highly suspect by the way the truck behaves that they are defueling more heavily above 244* to try to prevent overheat and I also denoted some play in the boost, as in boost possibly missing. I have put that project on the back burner though in favor of the Fan Damn and steering shaft and the possible Smart Clutch projects.

06 intake:

The stock intake cannot be compared really as it has no engineering thought as to IAT consequence whatsoever. The 06 intake beats stock hands down for IAT control, although when I focused testing on it I found it was less efficient than the TxC CAI in keeping IAT under control in all but the worst conditions. I did not get a chance to look exclusively at the 06 intake during heavy tow testing but from the data collected in the final 1300 miles of overheat testing I will admit that it may outperform the TxC CAI under extended peak heavy tow strain. I need more testing to see the exact differences between the two. Therefore I am designing a second version of the TxC CAI that will get comfortably below the 06 intake performance no matter the conditions. A good bit of the new engines resistance at temps over 240* is attributable to IAT control, but its not enough as we already know.

Anything else:

I verified that they moved my "Engine Coolant Hot" alarm up way high and eliminated its audible tone. As far as cooling system changes, I cannot say as of yet since I have not dug off into it enough to say with certainty. It was the same rad and intercooler, I know as I marked them before giving them the truck. Later I may do a more in depth inspection to try to ascertain if they made any other "unmentioned" changes. :Thumbup:

If I missed anything ask more/again

On Edit: I forgot to mention, at hearing they denied making any software or programming changes to the truck. I was ready for that and we nailed them pretty good on that too.

Make no mistake, GM does not give a rats azz about the truth or the facts, to them it is a straight business deal which involves $$$$ and they will do what they can to win, upstanding in nature or not.

.

 

[TxChristopher]

Steering shaft is the same deal, it would cost them way too much $$$ to design a new shaft solution then bring in all fullsize trucks, tahoes, suburbans, yukons, escalades etc etc built since like 1999 or whenever the exact start of the production of this shaft was. So they keep it on a case by case basis.

The overheating costs way more per truck than the shaft to rectify, they will never recall the trucks to fix them.

.

Exact models affected by steering shaft issue:

2002-2006 Cadillac Escalade Models
1999-2006 Chevrolet Silverado Models
2000-2006 Chevrolet Suburban, Tahoe Models
2002-2006 Chevrolet Avalanche
1999-2006 GMC Sierra Models
2000-2006 GMC Yukon, Yukon XL Models
2003-2006 HUMMER H2

Even if it were only $100 to fix per truck, you could see why they would not want to do a recall. It would be huge $$$$$

Same thing with the overheating, they won't be fixing the fleet, don't hold your breath waiting for it! :damnit

.

 

[mckey73]

Pardon my ignorance, but will they fix the steering shaft issue? With different parts, or just new ones?

 

[TheBac]

Pardon my ignorance, but will they fix the steering shaft issue? With different parts, or just new ones?

No. Only "fix" that works so far is periodically removing the shaft and lubing it. Now that I think about it, thats another thing on my "to do" list for the truck.

 

[killerbee]

The Duramax ROCKS!

It is probably the toughest thermal platform on the light/medium duty consumer use market! It will let you get away with a lot of poor choices, repeatedly. From a engineering testers perspective, I LOVE it.

There is only a small minority of people that combine the conditions necessary to overtask the cooling system. Cooling capacity is easy to fix for the few who want to pull other trucks around the planet, or any other commercial use. I gratefully accept its limitations in deference to the failings of other similar platforms that can't hold a candle to this kind of thermal cycling abuse.

Anyone considering that this video shows the duramax in a bad light, I disagree, when i see it, I am seeing it at its very best.

Any vehicle can be overheated, at any time of year, given the right combination of stress factors, beit artificially induced, naturally induced, or otherwise tampered with.

For those interested, I am developing (for 6 months now) an EFI tun that makes the overheat cycle impossible to replicate. It is not intended to replace cooling system expansion options, like the TD-EOC, but to give a 75-100 HP gain to a tow vehicle that also makes it immune to overheat.

The best part about it, is when it is released, it will be FREE to TD-EOC users!

This is just one of many improvements that I feel should encourage anyone who see's this thread and thinks: my pathetic truck has a "reduced value". Do not believe it. The DMAX is the best consumer grade diesel motor option in the marketplace, period, all things considered. That includes the LLY. Many of those that experienced this issue, no longer do. It is easy, and relatively inexpensive to fix. My fan and ECT gauge has been AWOL for a year now, that includes 90 summer days of 110 degree weather.

 

[Guest]

Gentlemen...I gave an unofficial warning in my last post...you can consider this your official warning.

This thread started off about an overheating vehicle, and the possible ramifications of it. It wasn't intended to turn into a "he's wrong...no he's wrong" thread. And honostly...this has dribbled into nothing more than what sounds like a couple of school age boys puffing their chests out on the school ground to impress the girls.

In other words...it needs to stop. I'm not one to lock a thread down...and I really do like the info in this thread. I'm a ford guy...I had no idea about this problem with the D'Max. Lets keep this on track. I have no problem handing out 10 day suspensions to the next offenders...whether they be paying vendors or not.

Thanks
Dave

 

[dieseldummy]

So what makes the LLY more prone to overheating compared to the LB7? I've towed way more than GM reccomends and never seen over 210 water temp. I've even forgot to take the winterfront off and towed without seeing over 210. Do the EGR and VVT turbo have a hand in things?

 

[chloeourdog]

For those interested, I am developing (for 6 months now) an EFI tun that makes the overheat cycle impossible to replicate. It is not intended to replace cooling system expansion options, like the TD-EOC, but to give a 75-100 HP gain to a tow vehicle that also makes it immune to overheat.

The best part about it, is when it is released, it will be FREE to TD-EOC users!

This sounds interesting (I just have to convince my better half to go for EFI-Live Is this related to the higher mpg tune that you were previously working on that reduced boost at highway speeds? An EFI-Live tune similar to Edge EZ level 1 would be enough for me.

I currently only run (with the Edge EZ on level 1) about 30hp additionally (about 80 extra ft.lbs torque) - Would my Ally being stock handle the 75-100 HP additional gain towing?


-M

 

[killerbee]

This sounds interesting (I just have to convince my better half to go for EFI-Live Is this related to the higher mpg tune that you were previously working on that reduced boost at highway speeds? No. Although the "hillbuster" tun will also yield better economy for the empty truck at least. Also, a very driveable improvement to the stock tun or any "box" tun.

An EFI-Live tune similar to Edge EZ level 1 would be enough for me.

I currently only run (with the Edge EZ on level 1) about 30hp additionally (about 80 extra ft.lbs torque) - Would my Ally being stock handle the 75-100 HP additional gain towing? Yes, I have had no limp issues so far, but it has not been field tested yet, and that is a ways off. A Jr version can be easily done if not comfortable with that much power. Or just use less foot.:Thumbup:


-M

Mark, if there is someone near you with EFI, then a license is only $99. One option anyway.

The typical box tun makes adjustments to about 4-5 lookup tables on the ECM. These tables are similar to a 2 dimensional excel table. I am up to 18 new tables on the LLY. Some of these I have adjusted 30 times. Things like DIC mileage accuracy, progressive accelerator feel, elimination of thermal feedback loops built into original LLY programming, timing for dynamic cylinder temp changes, as well as IAT impact on diesel ignition delay...a few of the concepts that tuner manufacturers leave out because they are not "quarter mile" oriented, and have no $$ return for them.

For example, in a truck running at 250 degrees with stock tuning, timing is non-optimum, too advanced, which has power loss consequences, yet is producing the very same heat. That loss in power is loss of hillside speed, stack airflow...and on. But at the track, you never see these conditions, nor on the dyno. If you try to dyno a 275 HP truck with 250 ECT, 180 IAT, and fan running. It won't get to 200 HP. Longwinded I know, sorry.

 

[444turbodiesel]

I'm late into this, but coming from a HD background I don't understand why it's a surprise to anyone when a light duty truck overheats when pushed to it's limits for lengthy periods. The cooling systems on light duty trucks are not designed for 100% engine duty cycle, then again the engines in LD trucks aren't rated for 100% duty cycle use either (unlike the derated MD versions). If you want to run on the floorboard for unlimited periods (100% duty cycle) you're going to need a bigger truck; by that I mean a truck rated for MORE than you're pulling. Just because the truck is rated to 22K, that doesn't mean it is designed for commercial towing at that weight or that it is capable of maintaining the posted speed limit in all conditions. You don't see class 8 trucks maintaining the speed limit when they are loaded to 80K, why on earth would you expect a little pick up to do it?

As far as the load in the video, towing a high cube box truck on a trailer, the drag from wind resistance is the bigger problem than the weight. The fact that you're loaded to the CGW limit and pushing the wind at 60-65mph puts you well over the duty cycle limit of both your engine and cooling system. A fifth wheel trailer of equal weight would give much different results. In addition, we don't know what the Dodge in the video was grossing or what mods might have been done to his truck to pull the load he had (most 12V Dodges I've seen have been modded to outpull just about anything new out there; and the fact he's pulling a Jeep behind his 5r leads me to believe he's a motorhead)

I've towed high cube box trucks on (class 8) drop-deck trailers plenty of times, the effects of wind drag are alarming. Even though I was well below my CGWR of 120K, maintaining the speed limit on even slight grades required as much throttle as a full load and engine temps were the same as if pulling a max load as well. Pulling an over-weight, over-dimension load would easily overheat my 525hp Cummins if I was foolish enough to keep it floored to try to maintain speed 100% of the time, even though the load was under my truck's designed (120,000#) weight limit the additional drag from the over-dimension put even my Kenworth's cooling system over it's duty cycle design limit.

Don't fool yourself into thinking just because you got a settlement that GM is wrong, they (all major corporations) often pay settlements when the cost of continued litigation reaches a certain point.

My suggestion would be if your planning to tow commercially at or near 22K, find a larger truck.

 

[killerbee]

So what makes the LLY more prone to overheating compared to the LB7? I've towed way more than GM reccomends and never seen over 210 water temp. I've even forgot to take the winterfront off and towed without seeing over 210. Do the EGR and VVT turbo have a hand in things?

Count your blessings. You have a waste gate. Badly applied computer controlled boost is the reason for the overheat cycle.

For a vehicle to be thermally stable as the platform becomes hotter, heat dissipation needs to increase , OR, heat production needs to decrease. In the case of the LLY, there are a couple of software thermal feedback loops, and one hardware thermal feedback loop that prevent positive thermal stability, and contribute to negative stability, a divergent trend toward overheat. These exist by (inadvertent) design in the induction mechanism. The warmer things get, the more heat is produced by the CAC in front of the radiator, which leads to hotter motor...etc. The radiator is worthless, if the cooling medium, air, running across it is too hot. The CAC heat rejection is a big variable. When it heats the ambient air to 200 degrees, there is no cooling for the radiator until the coolant gets significantly above 200.

The truck in the video finally attains thermal stabilty at about 260 degrees, which happens to be the same temp the ECM commands AC disable, which eliminates condenser heat production in front of the CAC. It is one of the only thermal considerations that prevents the user from spilling coolant, another is partial defuel, progressing above 244. He would have lost coolant had it been a little hotter outside.

Tip for EFI users: The AC disable comes too late , after a very significant speed loss. The idea when pulling a parachute load, is to keep speed up so cooling suffers less. So I disable AC at 230 or 240 instead, speed has not deteriorated.



444, thank you for the good insight!

 

[turbobruce]

I'm late into this, but coming from a HD background I don't understand why it's a surprise to anyone when a light duty truck overheats when pushed to it's limits for lengthy periods. The cooling systems on light duty trucks are not designed for 100% engine duty cycle, then again the engines in LD trucks aren't rated for 100% duty cycle use either (unlike the derated MD versions). If you want to run on the floorboard for unlimited periods (100% duty cycle) you're going to need a bigger truck; by that I mean a truck rated for MORE than you're pulling. Just because the truck is rated to 22K, that doesn't mean it is designed for commercial towing at that weight or that it is capable of maintaining the posted speed limit in all conditions. You don't see class 8 trucks maintaining the speed limit when they are loaded to 80K, why on earth would you expect a little pick up to do it?

As far as the load in the video, towing a high cube box truck on a trailer, the drag from wind resistance is the bigger problem than the weight. The fact that you're loaded to the CGW limit and pushing the wind at 60-65mph puts you well over the duty cycle limit of both your engine and cooling system. A fifth wheel trailer of equal weight would give much different results. In addition, we don't know what the Dodge in the video was grossing or what mods might have been done to his truck to pull the load he had (most 12V Dodges I've seen have been modded to outpull just about anything new out there; and the fact he's pulling a Jeep behind his 5r leads me to believe he's a motorhead)

I've towed high cube box trucks on (class 8) drop-deck trailers plenty of times, the effects of wind drag are alarming. Even though I was well below my CGWR of 120K, maintaining the speed limit on even slight grades required as much throttle as a full load and engine temps were the same as if pulling a max load as well. Pulling an over-weight, over-dimension load would easily overheat my 525hp Cummins if I was foolish enough to keep it floored to try to maintain speed 100% of the time, even though the load was under my truck's designed (120,000#) weight limit the additional drag from the over-dimension put even my Kenworth's cooling system over it's duty cycle design limit.

Don't fool yourself into thinking just because you got a settlement that GM is wrong, they (all major corporations) often pay settlements when the cost of continued litigation reaches a certain point.

My suggestion would be if your planning to tow commercially at or near 22K, find a larger truck.

There are reports from guys that had have had lly's that have overheated on that stretch of highway. Gm bought their truck back and now have a LBZ and can climb that same hill without overheating. I have overheated my truck on the Baker grade in the summertime. Before I bought my truck I had a Ford Expedtion with the 5.4 liter motor. I could climb that hill full throttle for 20miles at 55mph and never heat up that motor. I'm certainly not implying that it pulled my load better but, it never faultered once.


Gm admitted guilt the day they put the (aftermarket) x-box on my truck. I believe that a passenger truck being half ton,three quarter ton, or the one ton should be able to run 100% cycle duty and not overheat. Ford,Dodge,LBZ, and the Lb7 owners do not complain of overheating issues.

 

[TxChristopher]

It is probably the toughest thermal platform on the light/medium duty consumer use market! It will let you get away with a lot of poor choices, repeatedly. From a engineering testers perspective, I LOVE it.

There is only a small minority of people that combine the conditions necessary to overtask the cooling system. Cooling capacity is easy to fix for the few who want to pull other trucks around the planet, or any other commercial use. I gratefully accept its limitations in deference to the failings of other similar platforms that can't hold a candle to this kind of thermal cycling abuse.

Anyone considering that this video shows the duramax in a bad light, I disagree, when i see it, I am seeing it at its very best.

Any vehicle can be overheated, at any time of year, given the right combination of stress factors, beit artificially induced, naturally induced, or otherwise tampered with.

For those interested, I am developing (for 6 months now) an EFI tun that makes the overheat cycle impossible to replicate. It is not intended to replace cooling system expansion options, like the TD-EOC, but to give a 75-100 HP gain to a tow vehicle that also makes it immune to overheat.

The best part about it, is when it is released, it will be FREE to TD-EOC users!

This is just one of many improvements that I feel should encourage anyone who see's this thread and thinks: my pathetic truck has a "reduced value". Do not believe it. The DMAX is the best consumer grade diesel motor option in the marketplace, period, all things considered. That includes the LLY. Many of those that experienced this issue, no longer do. It is easy, and relatively inexpensive to fix. My fan and ECT gauge has been AWOL for a year now, that includes 90 summer days of 110 degree weather.

I have never said I didn't like the Duramax or that it sucked or was inferior, the discussion has been about the video and lawsuit. I think they are great trucks, the one in the video is still here and we enjoy it every day. :woot:

Not sure what the insinuation is when you talk about the truck being overheated "artificially" or via "tampering" and that part showed poor judgement in being included in your statement. :damnit


I too can make a tune (spelled with an "e") that will not overheat, its easy to do. However the point is to be able to utilize the power the engine is supposed to have, not to cut it back. The only way to do it electronically is to defuel more and/or decrease boost, both of which will cut power tremendously. The owners can already do that via the right foot, and be crawling up a hill. Thats not what people want, they want to use the power they paid for to run up that hill better than the gasser next to them. Adding electronic controls that take away your power is not the proper solution, cooling capacity addition is.

My fan and ECT gauge are AWOL just like yours is in hot weather, and my truck has no cooling improvements at all. Try to go tow instead of running empty like you always have with your own truck, then report your fan activity. Empty reports are of no use to the overheating Duramax owner.

I keep waiting for your first COMPLETELY constructive post in this thread, maybe I have hopes too high.

.

 

[TxChristopher]

I'm late into this, but coming from a HD background I don't understand why it's a surprise to anyone when a light duty truck overheats when pushed to it's limits for lengthy periods. The cooling systems on light duty trucks are not designed for 100% engine duty cycle, then again the engines in LD trucks aren't rated for 100% duty cycle use either (unlike the derated MD versions). If you want to run on the floorboard for unlimited periods (100% duty cycle) you're going to need a bigger truck; by that I mean a truck rated for MORE than you're pulling. Just because the truck is rated to 22K, that doesn't mean it is designed for commercial towing at that weight or that it is capable of maintaining the posted speed limit in all conditions. You don't see class 8 trucks maintaining the speed limit when they are loaded to 80K, why on earth would you expect a little pick up to do it?

As far as the load in the video, towing a high cube box truck on a trailer, the drag from wind resistance is the bigger problem than the weight. The fact that you're loaded to the CGW limit and pushing the wind at 60-65mph puts you well over the duty cycle limit of both your engine and cooling system. A fifth wheel trailer of equal weight would give much different results. In addition, we don't know what the Dodge in the video was grossing or what mods might have been done to his truck to pull the load he had (most 12V Dodges I've seen have been modded to outpull just about anything new out there; and the fact he's pulling a Jeep behind his 5r leads me to believe he's a motorhead)

I've towed high cube box trucks on (class 8) drop-deck trailers plenty of times, the effects of wind drag are alarming. Even though I was well below my CGWR of 120K, maintaining the speed limit on even slight grades required as much throttle as a full load and engine temps were the same as if pulling a max load as well. Pulling an over-weight, over-dimension load would easily overheat my 525hp Cummins if I was foolish enough to keep it floored to try to maintain speed 100% of the time, even though the load was under my truck's designed (120,000#) weight limit the additional drag from the over-dimension put even my Kenworth's cooling system over it's duty cycle design limit.

Don't fool yourself into thinking just because you got a settlement that GM is wrong, they (all major corporations) often pay settlements when the cost of continued litigation reaches a certain point.

My suggestion would be if your planning to tow commercially at or near 22K, find a larger truck.

I am not expecting it to run at 100% forever, but 5 to 6 minutes is far from forever. I take issue with your assessment of cooling systems too, I have run them at 100% and a properly designed system will dissipate 100% of the heat it produces no matter how long it runs at 100%. If not the designers either cut corners or miscalculated.

I didn't get a settlement, they lost in court and were ORDERED to pay. Big difference.

.