[killerbee]

I have datalogged OH runs using EFI. It might be interesting to get a core group of folks together to discuss what is happening. This would not be a place to learn how to use EFI. Is anyone familiar enough with both EFI, AND diesel tuning concepts, that they could participate in a core group discussion?

If there is sufficient interest, I'll get it going.

It would also be useful for the staff to look at making it possible to upload tun and log files. (.tun and .efi)

 

[stevebos]

Killerbee:

I'm coordinating test of the TD-EOC to obtain empirical before and after data relative to my application.

Based on input from several members much more experienced than I, the plan is to use EFI Live to data log ECT, RPM, vehicle speed and ambient temperature; and if possible, IAT, boost, pedal position, oil pressure and transmission temperature.

The project has been put on the back burner for now; my truck has been returned to and must remain in OEM stock condition (see signature) to support beta testing for the next several months.

I'm unfamiliar with EFI Live and diesel tuning... but would be interested in following the discussion.

 

[killerbee]

I am referring to data that would perhaps help lead down the road to tuning solutions. I realize that the TD-EOC is a solution for cooling system expansion, and that has been shown in testimonials.

I would like to explore potential sources of excess heat ,timing for example. The thermal feedback loops that heat up turbo uptake air, and reduce overall charge density, with resulting HP drop. These kinds of things.

For example, in a test I ran today on an overheater, the air running behind the CAC, to the radiator on the drivers side, was over 240 degrees with only moderate boost levels, and minimal load. The CAC is heating part of the radiator! That's nuts.

I have always said the rad has one problem, the CAC.

 

[Diesel Tech]

For example, in a test I ran today on an overheater, the air running behind the CAC, to the radiator on the drivers side, was over 240 degrees with only moderate boost levels, and minimal load.

Are you saying the air betwwen the CAC and the radiator was at 240 deg? If so where was the radiator temp at and what was the airflow across the stack? If your talking about a warmed up truck at near idle condition with the AC on that's normal. The T-stat keep the mass at near 200 so anything around it is going to be there plus whats coming off the AC condensor and CAC adds to it. Tuning is going to do nothing for it. Reduce the T-stat temp to start with to get it down some.

 

[killerbee]

240 F coming off the CAC, on the driver side (hot side), 40+ mph, with trailer in tow. Nearly a third of the radiator was being HEATED by the CAC.

The problem, clearly defined itself today. In the first 3rd of the radiator, the CAC is heating coolant. This vehicle may as well have had 1/3rd of it's radiator lopped off. In FACT, if the driver's side third of the rad was missing, the truck would stay COOLER! 240 degree air won't cool coolant to 200.
We did not sustain any load to raise ECT today, this was to sample various relevant parameters that are not seen by PCM monitoring.

BTW, that 240 was with nose shrouds installed. I assume the stock truck would have been worse.

 

[killerbee]

A paradoxical arrangement

The hot side of the CAC and the RAD, are positioned on the driver side. The fan sweeps up on the driver side, down on the pax side. If you open the hood and feel the air coming out, it is very hot. This is because most of the heat is removed from the driver side (hottest) sections of the CAC and RAD. This same air is dumped right onto the airbox.

The otherside of the stack, the pax side, is exhausted out the bottom of the vehicle by the fan.

Great! The hotter air from the driver side is stuffed under the hood, the cooler air goes out the bottom. Engineering! :damnit

How did this lightbulb finally go off? We did before/after boost stick testing , logging with efi. We could see added boost on the independent gauge. Yet the maf sensor values was not significantly change. 340 g/s roughly.

Need colder air and more of it.

 

[chloeourdog]

So can we reverse the direction of the fan .... (Not the flow, but the spin direction of the fan with modified blades pitched to flow correctly ....)

 

[killerbee]

answering with a question

can the belt be run on the other side of the fan pulley?

 

[chloeourdog]

The fan pitch would need to be changed to account for the opposite rotation in addition to the belt location/positioning - I'll have to take a look at the truck .... not sure any of this would make a difference though ....

 

[killerbee]

It would make a big diff on IAT. Even using my CAI, the rise is irritatingly obnoxious, although much less than stock. Reversing rotation would cure that IMO.

However, the absolute best solution would be mods that keep the fan off. No fan, no IAT rise.

a 50 degree rise in IAT, is a 10% power loss due to air density reduction

 

[chloeourdog]

So we put a thermostatically operated electric fan on the TD-EOC and replace the main belt-driven fan with 2 Flexalites - operate the driver side one first when more cooling is needed, then operate the other passenger side one when absolutely necessary.

Some are reporting a rise of 1-2 mpg with the Flexalites, but they won't work keep up when towing large (unless other cooling modifications have been installed ....)

Now one would need to fabricate a better shroud for the Flexalites because the one included for the DMax does not cover the lower radiator portion. Also if I recall the TCM needed to be mounted in a kludgy location.

 

[killerbee]

I will do some testing on another vehicle, to see if some turbos are much less efficient than others. Perhaps this one has been damaged.

You put some load on it...
Which creates heat offload by the CAC...
Which triggers the fan clutch....
Which routes heat to the intake...
Which increases IAT...
Which reduces compressor efficiency...
Which creates more heat out of the turbo into the CAC...
Which...makes less power
Which...slows down the vehicle
Which...reduces CAC effectiveness

never ends until you are on the side of the road boiling. All this heat passes by the radiator.

The fan must have been an afterthought, being 1" from motor parts.

 

[D Lafleur]

So we put a thermostatically operated electric fan on the TD-EOC and replace the main belt-driven fan with 2 Flexalites - operate the driver side one first when more cooling is needed, then operate the other passenger side one when absolutely necessary.

Some are reporting a rise of 1-2 mpg with the Flexalites, but they won't work keep up when towing large (unless other cooling modifications have been installed ....)

Now one would need to fabricate a better shroud for the Flexalites because the one included for the DMax does not cover the lower radiator portion. Also if I recall the TCM needed to be mounted in a kludgy location.

For the record that has been done already using the other heat rejection option with decent results. However the result of this setup did not out perform the factory fan with the same components. The testers didnt use the Flexalite setup, the created a shroud that fit the Dmax radiator and higher CFM fans.

 

[killerbee]

Based on what I saw, even if it is possible to isolate IAT from this cycle, the radiator doesn't have a chance.

That was a real eye opener, seeing ambient go from 100 to 240, in just one CAC stack layer. The fan can't fix that, (it was on continuously with mild reductions) no fan could IMO.

I think Fingers is right. The turbo. Not because of drive pressure, but because of ridiculous efficiency numbers compared to the IHI, but that remains to be demonstrated.

 

[killerbee]

This chart really bugs me. It kicks in at 5000 ft roughly, and adds timing advance, based on IAT (disregard "ECT" reference, that is a typo).

Timing advance for a hotter, thinner charge?