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The one and only
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Discussion Starter #1
What is everyones take on the survey results?

I'm sure most of you heard about it and saw it and maybe participated I know it was posted on MANY diesel sites for people to take part in.

Here is a link to the raw data

Some highlights i find interesting

61.2% was DP Tuner
32.7% was on 80HP Setting
49.0% was stock HPOP
34.7% was on STOCK injectors

Hummm :thinking
 

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is here and there.
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10,573 Posts
WELL DUH. :haha If 30 people who ran DP tuner respond and the next highest is 4 responders and that was "OTHER" who the hell do you think is going to be the highest percentage? Hummm LOL

keep :thinking

:haha
 

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The one and only
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Discussion Starter #3
That says a lot to me.
 

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The one and only
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Discussion Starter #5
Did i say anything about DP Tuner being the issue. NO but it is kinda weird how out of 49 blown motors 30 of them where running DP Tuner tuning.

I also find it interesting that most the failures where on 1999 model trucks. Wonder if there is something about the block that year or something else.

There is a LOT of data there and I just want peoples take on this. Not trying to point at anyone
 

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Banned
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I see a problem..

Failure analysis rules

* The failure investigator has only one objective. to determine the failure mechanism that caused the failure and to use that knowledge to prevent another occurrence:
* Start with and maintain an open mind. Emotion obscures objectivity and must be edged from the investigation.

* The theory, however elegant, must agree with the observed evidence, however humble.
* The simplest solution is the best solution.
* Having the wrong solution is frequently much worse than having no solution.
* Major incidents are often triggered by very minor or apparently innocuous details.
* Only one thing is worse than knowing you have a crack growing in a component, and that is not knowing you have a crack growing in a component.
* Cracks never get smaller, nor do they ever disappear. Either they stay the same size (invariably in a minor, insignificant, or easily repaired component), or they get bigger (usually in a critical component).
 

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The one and only
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Discussion Starter #7
There is a LOT of data there and I just want peoples take on this. Not trying to point at anyone
Did you not read my post.

I just want to look at everyone elses view on the results since no one has said anything about them yet.
 

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The one and only
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Discussion Starter #8
Close and lock and delete the thread if you want.

Just wanted to see what everyone's take was but I guess that is to much to ask for and people cant handle talking about what blows up trucks and what we can do to stop it.
 

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Junior Member
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849 Posts
I think both links are good. You not only have graphs, Russ posted the processes when determining engine failure which is a great one. The graphs may not tell you the complete story, but, they give you a baseline to start from. Now what exactly is happening during this 80hp increase setting???

Damaged Rod at 70% on #1
Damaged Piston 47.4% on #8
Cracked Cylinder 42.9% on #2 & #3
Blown Head Gasket 40% on #1
Broken Rod 34.8% on #2

I haven't found what the replies are just yet. How does the damage on any part appear as?
 

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is here and there.
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You're right. So, if you want to do a proper failure analysis learn how instead just taking a survey and using the results to point at one thing.

I don't care if you were saying the cold intake is the root cause, I would tell you and anyone else the same damn thing.
 

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The one and only
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Discussion Starter #11
You're right. So, if you want to do a proper failure analysis learn how instead just taking a survey and using the results to point at one thing.

I don't care if you were saying the cold intake is the root cause, I would tell you and anyone else the same damn thing.
I'm not the one that ordered for the survey. A highly trusted person in the PSD world did so that we could look and see trends and try and figure out the issues and why so many motors are getting blown.

If you have no idea what is going on in the PSD world then go back to your dmax threads.
 

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is here and there.
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I know Failure Analysis so I think I'm qualified. ;)
 

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Junior Member
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Ok, lets just cool down the situation and move on. I see some of the replies now, the ones that stuck out the most to is the broken crankshaft and block webbing. Obviously the con-rods are of the 'weak links' with the environment that the 80hp level provides.

Has anyone seen HOW the breaks in the crankshaft appear?
AND
How connecting rods look as well at the break point, or atleast from what is left of the rod?
 

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Junior Member
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It seems that most of the BIG tuners out there have had engine failures while their products were being used. Like said before, if you only sell 4 chips and one fails you have a pretty high failure rate of 25%, but if you sell 4000 chips and have the same number of failures , then your failure rate decreases exponentially to fractional amounts.

This survey seems to take into account only those who reported problems....there may be more or less. I would venture to bet that if we could see ALL failures from ALL tuners, the numbers in this survey would be totally different.

I see some of the commonality with these failures, but in order to really compare tuner to tuner, I would imagine that all the TEST vehicles would have to be modified EXACTLY, and be the same year, same miles, same climate....and a whole bunch of other things that are required for ACCURATE Failure Analysis,.The modifications, conditions, climates, mileage, condition of vehicle mentioned in the comments are so different, there is no way possible to determine definitive commonality. What is the main contributing factor to the failures? Still nobody knows. We know engines failed, but this survey seems to only reference tuning and nothing else, when we all should know there could and are other contributing factors.

These numbers are merely numbers....basic statistics, not a true failure analysis.

I have to agree that the DP ranked among the highest, but then again the probability of somebody running a DP is likely to be higher due to the popularity of the product.

I see these numbers and it reminds me of a phone call to Charlie Brown: You know something's being said, but it doesn't make sense.

I also think the main reason for this survey was to attempt to prove that DP Tuner had improper timing curves in their 80E program and was the DIRECT cause for the engine failures. With that being said, WHAT is the PROPER timing SUPPOSED to be? Everybody is blaming timing, but NOBODY can conclusively discuss WHAT PROPER timing is....

What we really need to do is get an UNBIASED test. Have somebody..maybe a 'puter geek, extract all the data from the chips of the tuners above and target mainly TIMING curves. Lets see how similar OR differnet they are. Lets do a forensic analysis and see just what each Tuner's timing curve is programmed at. Instead of a crude test in statistics and shadetree failure analysis, lets look at the beginning instead of the end.

I am really above my head here 'cause I hire people to be my 'puter geek, but I feel confident from what I hear from my people it can be done.

OK, I'm out

Back to work
 

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Premium Member
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And if the survey is flawed significantly by one chip vendor overstating the # of chips sold with tunes on them, then they come out looking like a peach.

I think Denis from ITP stated it best in a similar thread on another board when he said
First and foremost, the population of resondents is too limited. You are only getting a few select members of several of the internet diesel forums. Considering that PSN was probably a major contributing factor to this survey (and mine), the % of those that responded that had other significant performance mods, used their truck in competition of some kind or otherwise "abused" the truck is probably higher. This is based on the "high performance" mentality of much of the PSN crowd.

Second, accuracy of the information...my survey started getting "wise crack" replies aimed directly at discrediting a particular company. People have agendas and some are not always honest about how they approach them.

Third, unknown actual root cause of failures. Too many times the vehicle owner didn't do anything to determine the actual cause of the failure. Point any any mod on their truck, without actually taking the engine apart and looking at the damage, it's just guessing.

Fourth, refusal to complete the survey. It's been a while now, but there were several people that we asked to complete my survey that refused to do so. Anyone that thinks that only customers from one particular tuner refused to complete the surveys is sadly mistaken! Simply put, if ANY member of the site where this was advertised refused to complete the survey, the data is skewed and becomes invalid. It doesn't have to be anything more than the vehicle owner not wanting to implicate a particular person or part, a simple and honest decision by that person that they don't want to participate, and the data is that much more inaccurate.

Fifth, there is no way to ask all of the questions that really need to be asked to prove anything. A 20 question survey (which could be answered inaccurately or intentionally wrong) is just not enough information to really form a good pattern. Asking about the CPS color isn't enough for instance. How old is that CPS might be needed. How about asking if the EOT sensor was every confirmed to be functioning properly. Was it verified with a scantool to be a good sensor, or just assumed to be good? Wiring harness issues? I've got a customer that had a drivability issue related to a faulty harness at the EOT sensor, what might that have been doing to timing? Whose fault would a failure in that truck be?

In a nutshell, there needs to be a LOT more questions on the survey, and they need to be answered by someone with no stake in the outcome. Those responding need to have completed a professional failure analysis (including verification of proper functionality of critical engine sensors, etc) so that they have a realistic idea about the root cause of the failure. You would need to find a way to tap the "rest of the world" with chips in their trucks because the small number of members of the internet forums compared to the extremely large number of chipped trucks makes the current sample size too small and the biases and preconceived ideas of many of those responding an issue for survey accuracy.

Of course, I didn't even go down the road of consistency of injectors (stock or modified), lack of good injector rating standards, the fact that some identically rated injectors (from the same vendor) flow significantly different, how critical driving style is (hard driving right after cold start, flooring it from an idle/dead stop, etc.).
prt
 

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SRW Cartell #27
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487 Posts
I think the survey is interesting to see the combinations of the trucks listed. None were a huge supprise because of all the mods done. It can be expected to lower the life span of a diesel when adding any kind of tuner\mods. If you want your truck to last a long time leave it stock as a rock. What i think is wild is the # of them that were 99s. Is it because they are inferior or just a cheaper superduty to buy and tune right now? who know.. there needs to be more data to come to any conclusions. :read

One other thing i cannot believe that 7 people or 14.3% on the survey were still using a stock or almost stock tire size... WOW... LOL :wtf
 

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Junior Member
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.....WHAT is the PROPER timing SUPPOSED to be? Everybody is blaming timing, but NOBODY can conclusively discuss WHAT PROPER timing is.....
Depending on your application, the timing will vary. I don't think you would run a stock timing curve with a pulling rig. Same goes for oval track, you wouldn't use a pulling setting for a oval track diesel mill.

The point at which the piston is on the compression stroke heating the air charge up as it approaches TDC (crankshaft is in the correct position) in order for proper temperature levels in the chamber & both valves close, fuel is injected correctly (Optimum HPOP operation). Fuel type is correct, fuel quantity & density is correct, correct fuel temperature, optimum mixture qualities are present, the fuel is in a homogenous state once the injection has been done. Flame travel begins and ends just like it was said to on paper on the design, but, one reason that makes me think other wise is understanding airflow. You can not imagine airflow and how you will supposedly 'exactly' manipulate it's actions and expect the exact process to happen, flame travel will do the same. You can only influence the direction and pattern you would like it to go in regards to piston crown design and fire deck of the cylinder head. Still does not mean it will do what you want it to everytime.

It would have been great if they would have described the appearance of the piston damage done!
 
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Junior Member
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Depending on your application, the timing will vary. I don't think you would run a stock timing curve with a pulling rig. Same goes for oval track, you wouldn't use a pulling setting for a oval track diesel mill.

The point at which the piston is on the compression stroke heating the air charge up as it approaches TDC (crankshaft is in the correct position) in order for proper temperature levels in the chamber & both valves close, fuel is injected correctly (Optimum HPOP operation). Fuel type is correct, fuel quantity & density is correct, correct fuel temperature, optimum mixture qualities are present, the fuel is in a homogenous state once the injection has been done. Flame travel begins and ends just like it was said to on paper on the design, but, one reason that makes me think other wise is understanding airflow. You can not imagine airflow and how you will supposedly 'exactly' manipulate it's actions and expect the exact process to happen, flame travel will do the same. You can only influence the direction and pattern you would like it to go in regards to piston crown design and fire deck of the cylinder head. Still does not mean it will do what you want it to everytime.

It would have been great if they would have described the appearance of the piston damage done!

This is similar to what I was getting at. There is NO "proper" timing curve. It is based on what you do, expected results, and trial and error. Like was said, the "survey" as it developed was a direct result of blown engines that were a result of "too much timing" programmed into DP Tuners 80E program (yes, there WAS a hidden agenda to the whole thing...it was a DP Tuner witch hunt!). As we can all see there is no perfect timing curve, and therefore cannot be blamed solely for blown engines.

Every thread I read about this points to two things 1) Extremes in timing advance, and 2) DP Tuner.

But as we all look closer, it is VERY obvious that TIMING alone can't be blamed for the problems...it is many, many variables.
 

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ADMIN/MAFIA
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If you play you pay? :shrugs

Im not picking sides here. but to say the tuner caused the problem I feel is flawed unless it can be determined w/o a doubt that it cased the issue.
 
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