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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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I just am curious about Mopar's comment about not mixing the two, and of course the results of the test.

LargeCar:usflag :mafia :usflag
 

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2 Cycle Oil

I'm with Mopar.
2 cycle oil does make the injectors quiet. My buddy that just replaced a diesel engine because of an injector fault caused by the new fuel, it melted one of his pistons.
I have noticed a difference in sound between lsd and ulsd in my injectors.

I am looking forward to the test results. I just don't know if 2 cycle oil well cause some other problem.

Mopar have you sent your oil to be check to see if any problems show up in the analyses??


Donovan
 

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I use Lucus and my dad uses it in his semi. Its $9.99 a bottle and 32 oz cleans 100 gallons
 

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I will post the results as soon as i get to the trucks just been busy.
i would love to see any pics guy"s may have of nozzels that failed or assembly"s they think failed due to low lubricathion.
 

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Mopar1973Man said:
DON'T MIX ADDITIVES with 2 CYCLE OIL... It will retard the lubriucation qualities...
I'd like to see some evidence to back that statement up.
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Looks like we were to hard on Mopar, guess we should have been nicer to him. He posted some interesting stuff but I think we all needed more info on his process than he was willing to try to pound into us.

Guess we will have to rely on Diesel71 for the test results.

LargeCar:usflag :mafia :usflag
 

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Ok... It really simple why I suggest you don't mix additive with 2 cycle oil.

Take a look at my MSDS sheets on most all products.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar1973man/2002%20Dodge/Tips%20&%20Tricks/2%20cycle%20oil/MSDS/MSDS%20Links.htm

Now take a look at the chemical definitions...
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar1973man/2002%20Dodge/Tips%20&%20Tricks/2%20cycle%20oil/Chemicals/chemicals.htm

The three most common chemicals in additives - Information From http://en.wikipedia.org
Naphtha is used primarily as feedstocks for producing a high octane gasoline component via the catalytic reforming process. Naphtha is also used in the petrochemical industry for producing olefins in steam crackers and in the chemical industry for solvent (cleaning) applications.



Xylene Chemical industries produce xylene from petroleum. It is one of the top 30 chemicals produced in the United States in terms of volume. Xylene is used as a solvent and in the printing, rubber, and leather industries. p-Xylene is used as a feedstock in the production of terephthalic acid, which is a monomer used in the production of polymers. It is also used as a cleaning agent for steel and for silicon wafers and chips, a pesticide [1], a thinner for paint, and in paints and varnishes.



Mineral Spirits or White spirit is used as an extraction solvent, as a cleaning solvent, as a degreasing solvent and as a solvent in aerosols, paints, wood preservatives, lacquers, varnishes, and asphalt products. In western Europe about 60% of the total white spirit consumption is used in paints, lacquers and varnishes. White spirit is the most widely used solvent in the paint industry. In households, white spirit is commonly used to clean paint brushes after decorating. Its paint thinning properties enable brushes to be properly cleaned (by preventing the paint from hardening and ruining the bristles) and therefore enabling them to be re-used.



Now in all these chemical that are listed in every single product I've got MSDS sheets for do you see a lubricant??? I see nothing but DEGREASERS, SOLVENTS, and THINNERS! Would you try to lubricant any moving parts with these chemicals??? I hope not... If you mix these chemicals with 2 cycle oil you going to thin out the lubricant. It would be like dumping diesel fuel in your crankcase oil. It would thin the oil out and cause bearing failure... Remember the Dodge VE Pumps & VP44 pumps are lubed by only the fuel! So if the fuel is thin from ULSD standards and you dump in more agents to thin it more it will cause damage in the long run...

I lost my first VP44 to common additive at 50K miles. I used it religiously every tank I would put in about 10 Ozs as directed.

Remember the standards of diesel fuel have been reduced by the ULSD to 520 HFRR which means that two pieces of metal rubbing together cannot wear more that 520 Microns using the fuel as a lubricant. But how much is 520 microns??? It would be 0.020" !!! I'm sorry but I don't want any wear on the part of my injection pump or injectors... So I keep it lubed up by add oil and not solvents!
 

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I know this is a Ford Forum but...

The recommended cetane number for Cummins is...

A Cetane rating of 40 is recommended at temperatures above 32 degrees.
A Cetane rating of 45 is recommended at temperatures below 32 degrees.

Ok... Now that thats stated what is the current Cetane level of your fuel???
http://www.cpchem.com/enu/tds_unsecured/Diesel_Fuel_summary.pdf

So your at 43 to 47 Cetane number now why do you need more cetane than is recommended by the manufacture?

So what is Cetane and what does it do???
A measure of the starting and warm-up characteristics of a fuel. In cold weather or in service with prolonged low loads, a higher cetane number is desirable. Legislation dictates the Cetane index should be 40 or above.

Cetane number or CN is a measure of the combustion quality of diesel fuel via the compression ignition process. Cetane number is a significant expression of diesel fuel quality among a number of other measurements that determine overall diesel fuel quality. Cetane number is actually a measure of a fuel's ignition delay; the time period between the start of injection and start of combustion (ignition) of the fuel. In a particular diesel engine, higher cetane fuels will have shorter ignition delay periods than lower cetane fuels. Cetane numbers are only used for the relatively light distillate diesel oils.

There is no benefit to using a higher cetane number fuel than is specified by the engine's manufacturer. The ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states, "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions. Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to insure maximum fuel availability." This quote underscores the importance of matching engine cetane requirements with fuel cetane number.

So why are people so hell bent on adding something to the fuel that is not needed...:shrug:

What is not in todays fuel is LUBRICANTS! This is why the HFRR score was delveloped. It was to insure a minimum amount of lubricant where making it back into the fuels so it wouldn't harm the fuel system of your diesel engine.

I'm done Enuf said...:Thumbup:
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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Good stuff guys, now I need some time to study it more closely.

LargeCar:usflag :mafia :usflag
 

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The 2cycle adds about 6 1/2 cents a gallon to the price of the fuel and is probably 20k BTU per gallon more fuel or on the order of 15% and it is intended by the manufacture to go through the cylinder and burn.

The pipelines will not allow the lubricant to be added before it is transported in piplines because it affects jet fuel that is shipped in the same pipes. The tank truck driver is to add the proper amount.

My pickups both have rotary injection pumps that developed high pitched noise with the ULSD fuel and stopped making the noise after adding the 2cycle oil. The little one dropped about 3 MPG on the ULSD and gained 2 MPG back, the Dodge had 2cycle from the first fill when I bought it. Both went to a proper combustion thump within 50 miles and lost a high pitched sound that I had on the list to hunt down. The rattle of ether is simular to the pitch that came with the new fuel in the little pickup, the fuel burning to quick and generating high pressures at the top of the stroke. The high pressures also press the upper ring out aginst the cylinder so the noise could be that also. The purpose that 2cycle is sold for is the lubrication of upper rings to prevent cylinder scoring. We sold a lot of upper cylinder lube in the 50's and scored cylinders were common so filters and lube oil have improved a lot because the main cause of scored cylinders is coolant leaks.

mopar1973man has found a back door into the trade secrets of the mouse milk business and a possible solution. Seems to work on the rotary and inline pumps but no real doc's on common rail. I've got a Detroit going pickle hauling and there is a case of 2cycle going with it, the driver will run out about half way through the deal so when I look at the fuel records there will probably be a hint for common rail engines. Ya or nay the reciepts have no prejudice, it will either save on fuel or cost about twice as much for 6 gallons.

Because I do not have confidence in the drivers adding the lube componet to the ULSD I sent the 2cycle with the truck and posted why here, you pays your money you takes your choice. Fords were designed with the new fuel in mind but the development got fully formulated fuel. If the driver forgets to add the lube to the fuel on one trip and makes up by adding twice as much to the next wagon is your truck going to like the result? The fuel north of DC gets better mileage, the fuel from Ga south loses over .3 MPG for a 500 Detroit. That may account for some having different results with 2 cycle. Or the engine may have moly rings that are 'lubed for life' instead of chrome.

The back door? The Federal law that provides that you have access to information on the chemicals that you work with on the job.

keydl
 

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Old Geezer-TDG Mafia #19
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I just sent for the MSDS on the Power Service fuel additive to do some researce into what Mopar says about the chemicals in it.

I just have to think that a company that is built on researce, testing, and many miles of satisfied customers would not exist if their product was deteramental to the longevity of the engines of their customers.

Additionally does the two stroke have an anti gel package, an anti fungal package, a sabalizer package, a package specfically designed for diesel engine close tolerance injector lubrication, an cleaning package, and contains a diesel fuel thermal and oxidative stability package?

I believe there is a lot more to a good fuel additive than just the ability to make up for the lube qualities that are lost in the refining process. Two stroke may be good at doing just that, but for my money I would like to cover more bases.

This is turning out to be a very informitive thread, and I think we can all participate without being negative about others information. If we just present our facts and knowledge without negativity I think we will all benefit. I appreciate Mopar's and Diesel71's input, as well as anybody else that wishes to add to the thread. :Thumbup:

LargeCar:usflag :mafia :usflag
 

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Clevelandjim said:
Here is a good write up on diesel fuel:http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/L2_7_1_rf.htm

2Cycle oil definitely quieted my injectors, but Cetane seems like a good thing in the Chevron article.

How dirty does 2Cycle oil make on'e injectors over time?
I kind of love this... I started thinking about the link... When was the last time you saw a company talk poorly about there own product? So of course everything that Chevron had listed in this page is good... They talk good about the product of fuels and fuel conditioners they sell.

I try to find the little independent people or colleges that have done study on fuels etc. and use them. Of course if you go to AMSOil and ask them they would tell you Cetane booster are great and buy some. You got to PS they will tell you the same thing. :damnit :shrug:

But now if you go to outsiders and independents now the story changes BIG TIME!.

Like I qouted above in my prev. message.

Mopar1973Man said:
The ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states, "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions. Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to insure maximum fuel availability."
This from ASTM specifications for diesel fuel... If you want more go here...
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/index.shtml?E+mystore

I'm not going to quote a BIG COMPANY like Chevron... That is for sure one sided... But I will quote the testing labs that set the standards...:sly:
 

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I agree with the "be nice and get along" idea on the thread. There is some danged good info on here about this subject, I am still trying to catch up.

That being said here is what i dragged up from several sources....

1. CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION

Material Identity
Product Name: 2 CYCLE MOTORCYCLE INJECTOR 12/1 QT
General or Generic ID: PETROLEUM BASED-LUBRICATING OIL

Company Telephone Numbers
The Valvoline Company Emergency: 1-800-274-5263
P.O. Box 14000
Lexington, KY 40512 Information: 1-859-357-7206

__________________________________________________________________________

2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight)
-------------------------------------------- ------------- -------------
PETROLEUM LUBE OIL 64742-65-0 69.0- 79.0
ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS (STODDARD TYPE) 8052-41-3 4.0- 14.0
LUBRICATING OIL ADDITIVE 0.0- 10.0
LUBRICATING OIL ADDITIVE 0.0- 7.0

Aliphatic compound
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aliphatics include not only the fatty acids and other derivatives of paraffin hydrocarbons (alkanes), but also unsaturated compounds, including the alkenes (such as ethylene) and the alkynes (such as acetylene). The most frequently found non-carbon atoms bound to the carbon chain include hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur, and various halides.
Hydrocarbons can be gases (e.g. methane and propane), liquids (e.g. hexane and benzene), waxes or low melting solids (e.g. parafin wax and naphthalene) or polymers (e.g. polyethylene, polypropylene and polystyrene}.

Material Safety Data Sheet
I. Chemical Product and Company Identification:
Product Description: Mineral Spirits
Stock Numbers: 10-4980-00
HMIS CODES: H-1 Date Prepared: 4-25-07
F-2 Supercedes: 12-20-02
R-0
P-x (see section VIII)
Company: North Carolina Department of Correction Enterprise Paint Plant
Address: 2465 US 70 West
Smithfield, NC 27577
Telephone: Product Information: (919) 989-8695
Emergency: CHEMTREC: 1-800-424-9300
Contact for Technical Information: Steve Jacobson (919) 989-8695
II. Composition/Information on Ingredients:
Component CAS # Percent by weight NCOSH PEL ACGIH TWA
Aliphatic Hydrocarbons 8052-41-3 100%
(Stoddard Type)



Ok here is what I am trying to show.....

Valvoline's two stroke oil contains as one of it's ingrediants ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS , then Wikipedia defines Aliphatic Hydrocarbons as having fatty acids and other derivatives of paraffin hydrocarbonsand waxes or low melting solids (e.g. parafin wax and naphthalene) or polymers (e.g. polyethylene, polypropylene and polystyrene}.

Then the North Carolina Department of Correction Enterprise Paint Plant makes a Mineral Spirits that is Aliphatic Hydrocarbons 8052-41-3 100% (Stoddard Type)


So the question is "does the Valvoline 2 stroke oil also contain the products that are said to be in the commercially availible fuel additives"?

Just putting it out there for info purposes.

LargeCar:usflag :mafia :usflag

PS. I did get the MSDS sheets from a fuel additive manufacture but Mopar has given me a heads up on the sharing of those sheets here, it seems they are a bit touchy about sharing the info. Thanks Mopar:Thumbup:
 

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That's why some of us have done a bit of chasing for good types of 2 cycle oil... Even on that oil its 79% oil and 14% solvents which is low! The other fact is todays diesel fuel has them too...

http://www.cpchem.com/enu/msds_unsecured/Import_CPC00017_MSDS_O_ENGLISH_A_ENGLISH_A_N.pdf
This why I stress the fact the fuel needs more lubricants and less solvents....

The fact is that all oil today have some form of solvents but the trick here is to find the ones with the lowest amount of solvents in it and has the most amount of oil.

My favorite winter time oil...
http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/21520_1.pdf
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd00032/wcd03285.htm

And the specs. (good pour point numbers)
http://www.smallandsonsoil.com/index.php?x=PH_injex
If diesel is about 2.2 cSt at 70*F and this oil is 37.0 cSt... Not bad at all still plenty thick...

My summer time oil...
http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/23946_1.pdf
It shows a lot of solvents but the oil pour very thick. Just about like 30 weight engine oil. So I'm gathering they started out with a heavy base stock.

This is the best but no one can seem to find a gallon jug of it...
http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/21189_1.pdf

Still the fact remains that if you take a cup of 2 cycle oil and leave it out in the summer you'll still have a oil in the cup. But pour some additive in a cup and leave it out it will evaporate. This a a huge sign of solvents and/alcohols...

Remember you don't see engine oil evaporating... But solvents will! :popcorn:
 

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I guess I am missing something here, all of your links list either a dispersant, solvent or high flash diluent as a part of the make up of the product. One was listed as a very high percentage of solvent.

So explain it to me in small terms because I seem to be missing why we should not use fuel additives that have solvents in them in favor of two stroke oil that has solvents in them. And what about the other packages that are in fuel additives and not in two stroke oil?:shrug: :usflag :mafia :usflag

Maybe I am just dense. Is anybody else having problems like me? Help!

LargeCar :usflag :mafia :usflag
 

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This is a great thread, I'd like to add a couple of comments about MSDSs. MSDS documents are created due to the (legal) need to communicate hazards to the persons using them. They are not usually intended to be a highly accurate representation of the composition -- for a couple of reasons. First, it's hard to know exactly: using generic names such as "ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS (STODDARD TYPE)" and their associated CAS number "8052-41-3" allow characterization of complex mixtures of chemicals without listing (or knowing for that matter) the exact identity of each of the individual components (however many there are). Second, this allows companies to keep trade secrets while still accurately communicating hazards. (See, for example, Mopar's link above for the Power Service MSDS where they identify "hydroxy compounds" - can't get much broader than that, water is a "hydroxy compound"). Plus, it's not unusual to have multiple CAS numbers that would correctly describe a particular mixture - some would just be more accurate than others. CAS numbers can be as much a description of how something is produced, as well as the identity. So, that said, it's a bit difficult to do direct comparisons of products based on MSDS alone (that's the way companies with trade secrets like it), but it's a good place to start -- one just needs to be aware of the nature of the data you're using.

Also, here's some more info to digest, these first two are the definition associated with the CAS number from the CAS database, FWIW.


ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS (STODDARD TYPE) 8052-41-3 is "A colorless, refined petroleum distillate that is free from rancid or objectionable odors and that boils in the range of approximately 149°C to 204.5°C (300°F to 400°F).

PETROLEUM LUBE OIL 64742-65-0 is "A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by removal of normal paraffins from a petroleum fraction by solvent crystallization. It consists predominantly of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C20 through C50 and produces a finished oil with a viscosity not less than 100 SUS at 100°F (19cSt at 40°C).


At http://www.brownoil.com/msdsdiesel.htm I found this: #2 Diesel is a complex mixture of hydrocarbons from a variety of chemical processes blended to meet standardized product specifications. Composition varies greatly and includes C9 to C20 hydrocarbons with a boiling range of about 325-675 degrees F.
 

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Still remains that 2 cycle oil is a lubricant. True 2 cycle engines this is the only lubricant that the entire engine runs on. It a lubricant that is meant to be burned compared to other thing like engine oils, WEO, ATF, etc.

Still in all there isn't any product on the market that can lower the HFRR value below the 520 mark of todays ULSD. Remember that my truck 2002 Dodge Cummins was designed around not ULSD but LSD. This had a HFRR number of 250-350 which had much more lubricants in it.

So basically I'm trying to keep my fuel system from getting excessive wear from the fuels of today. Like I said there is one product that I've found that is going to lower HFRR value to 250-350 as it was back in 2002...

Here is a Link to PS FAQ page... Read number 9
http://www.powerservice.com/faq/default.asp#9

As it listed on PowerService FAQ's page it meets the 520 HFRR standard but doesn't exceed it!

But what is the standard of today fuel???
http://www.cenexenergy.com/Downloads/2ULSDSpec_2006.pdf

Wow!!! The ULSD is the exactly same rating as PowerService... So there is techincally no real improvement...

If anyone can show me a product that exceeds the 520 HFRR standard and reduces the HFRR back down to 250-350 range I will listen... But I've never found one yet...:shrug:
 

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gopher said:
This is a great thread, I'd like to add a couple of comments about MSDSs. MSDS documents are created due to the (legal) need to communicate hazards to the persons using them. They are not usually intended to be a highly accurate representation of the composition -- for a couple of reasons. First, it's hard to know exactly: using generic names such as "ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS (STODDARD TYPE)" and their associated CAS number "8052-41-3" allow characterization of complex mixtures of chemicals without listing (or knowing for that matter) the exact identity of each of the individual components (however many there are). Second, this allows companies to keep trade secrets while still accurately communicating hazards. (See, for example, Mopar's link above for the Power Service MSDS where they identify "hydroxy compounds" - can't get much broader than that, water is a "hydroxy compound"). Plus, it's not unusual to have multiple CAS numbers that would correctly describe a particular mixture - some would just be more accurate than others. CAS numbers can be as much a description of how something is produced, as well as the identity. So, that said, it's a bit difficult to do direct comparisons of products based on MSDS alone (that's the way companies with trade secrets like it), but it's a good place to start -- one just needs to be aware of the nature of the data you're using.

Also, here's some more info to digest, these first two are the definition associated with the CAS number from the CAS database, FWIW.


ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS (STODDARD TYPE) 8052-41-3 is "A colorless, refined petroleum distillate that is free from rancid or objectionable odors and that boils in the range of approximately 149°C to 204.5°C (300°F to 400°F).

PETROLEUM LUBE OIL 64742-65-0 is "A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by removal of normal paraffins from a petroleum fraction by solvent crystallization. It consists predominantly of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C20 through C50 and produces a finished oil with a viscosity not less than 100 SUS at 100°F (19cSt at 40°C).


At http://www.brownoil.com/msdsdiesel.htm I found this: #2 Diesel is a complex mixture of hydrocarbons from a variety of chemical processes blended to meet standardized product specifications. Composition varies greatly and includes C9 to C20 hydrocarbons with a boiling range of about 325-675 degrees F.
This is why I list my chemical page for you so you can judge for yourself. He's right that a lot of company change the mixture percentage and use strange CAS# mixture to hide there trade secret of design of there products. Like PS did with theirs...

But still in all 2 cycle oil is a OIL... The base of it was made from a heavy oil and solvents used to bring the oil to the proper thickness. Being that most 2 cycle oils fall in the relm of about 37 cSt at 100*F.

Now when you look at most additives there isn't a single oil listed for lubrication of your fuel system.
 
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