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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im trying to learn as much as I can as fast as possible. So be patient and only tell me what u KNOW I really dont want opinions. Thanks. I want to put a '94 12 valve in my '95 F-350 with a five speed. I need some proven combinations to make as close to 800hp as possible with a single turbo. And I don't want to use spray. Like i said i'm learning so go easy on the abbreviations and the slang. I appreciate all of your help.
 

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well if this is a daily driver its going to be hard to get 800 on a single and still have it streetable
 

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Not going to happen without melting the 12 Valve.
500 hp is a very hot street 12v.

If you want 800hp on the street you need a common rail.

In a few weeks I will be over 800 so stay tuned...I am not sure how drivable or livable it will be.

Will keep you posted if you like
 

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I wouldn't say impossible, but I don't think it would be very street friendly. Sounds like you're going to build a puller though and are restricted to a single charger by regulations. Is this the case? Its important to know what you're using it for. Also, what kind of budget are we talking about here?

For 800hp on fuel with a single. I would say a 13mm pump that has been put on a flow table and tuned out of the truck. I don't think you could squeeze that kind of power out of a pump with 12mm Barrels and Plungers. A good set of injectors will also be required. DDP4's or F1 Mach 4's or something of that nature. You will also need to stud and o-ring the engine as well. You will have to turn some pretty high RPM to get up there, are there any limits on what RPM you can run. A fuel system, Cam and Valve springs should probably all be on your list too.
Sean
 

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I'm not sure you could keep it streetable with only a single. As far as the fueling end of it, DDP4 or New Era 435 injectors, bigger injector lines, bench flowed pump, probly 5K governor springs, 20* timing, and a FASS. Then stud, O ring, and Marine gasket the heads, 60 psi valve springs, bigger cam, ported head, bigger intercooler and boost lines, 5" exhaust, and gauges. If you do go twins (which is highly reccomended) a 62/71/16 over a BHT3B or bigger would be good. If you must have a single, I think Garret makes 80 and 88mm turbos.
 

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Smokin07 said:
Not going to happen without melting the 12 Valve.
500 hp is a very hot street 12v.

If you want 800hp on the street you need a common rail.

In a few weeks I will be over 800 so stay tuned...I am not sure how drivable or livable it will be.

Will keep you posted if you like

I think you need to talk to some 12 valve guys. There are a lot of them with more than 500hp in there daily drivers. Heck Maddog's 1200hp 12 valve can be his daily driver and his little turbo is bigger than the big turbo in most sets of twins.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I dont plan on it being a full time dd but maybe a friday night test driver. ATS or industrial inj. said the maybe could help me build it but they say i will need a second turbo for street. hey thank and post a picture of that mack
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ya thats what i want is a puller and a friday night muscle car/truck. I still own a dd stroke but building a competitive one of those is way out of the buget. Thanks your info is just what i was lookin 4. Buget ='s what ever we can beg borrow or steal after we get the mook up done and a body to cover it. But i only intend to do it right. thanks go easy on your ol '94
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I know your right streetable is almost impossible but it will be fun next small cars thanks for the advice. You feel my pain, you apparently didnt want to buy a new trk and a programmer to make smoke you wanted to build it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Keep me posted on your 800+hp. And if you have and places to look for set ups similar to Mad Dog's let me know thats kinda my inspiration i guess and i want smoke from dirty hands and a empty pocket not just and empty pocket. THANKS Again.
 

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water injection cam injectirs pump like one of theese guys said head studed and o-ringed dual disc clutch to get the pwer to the ground
 

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Dual K20s said:
I think you need to talk to some 12 valve guys. There are a lot of them with more than 500hp in there daily drivers. Heck Maddog's 1200hp 12 valve can be his daily driver and his little turbo is bigger than the big turbo in most sets of twins.
Been there done that.

The 12V is still the best race motor ...No question there. As a high hp street motor it is light years behind.

Street driven big Hp 12 valves need big turbos and yet still run super hot. 12V's are slow to lite those big turbos.

It might be a matter of opinion but I would rather eat worms than daily drive Maddogs fummins. Race it yes!
By comparison my (700Hp) common rail has no heat related or intersection fogging issues and is perfectly happy driving around in traffic.

Give the CR a good hard look where it comes to street applications.
 

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What exactly is it that makes the 12 valve so un-streetable in your opinion?

I agree the common rail is the best motor for a daily driver over 800hp. Actually I think its the best race motor too, but the experience isn't there yet.

But I know a lot of people who love their ~700hp 12 valve daily drivers, and wouldn't trade them. They do work a lot better with an extra turbo though. And for a swap its probably the best to work with.
 

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Oh, and for that combo I'd go with:

-DDP 4's, 435's, dragon flows or some other custom ones in that order of preference
-I'm not sure if your get enough out of a 12mm pump, so a 13mm would be good
-upwards of 4500rpm, 181 dvs are enough, #100 plate, but all this will come in the pump
-A sillver bullet, K31, Aurora 5000, or s400 variant for the air
-Ported and polished head, heavier valve springs
-a cam for airflow

The rest is up to you how you want to get it to hold together, support it, and get it to the ground
-O-rings or fire rings are a good idea
-studs are a good idea, special 12mm ones are generally better than 14mm ones
-a balanced bottom end would be nice
-a girdle/bedplate
-If you have the engine apart I'd put in some marine style pistons with a wider bowl
-better breathers are a good idea
-better intercooler boots
-an intercooler upgrade might help, but its not an absolute necessity
-3 piece maniflod, won't add any power but you don't want yours to crack/shrink and crack the ears on the head

To support all that you'll likely need a regulated fuel system w/ large lines that can supply a constant 45psi at full load
As for the trans, a double disk clutch with a large input shaft should work
To support all that you'll likely need a regulated fuel system w/ large lines that can supply a constant 45psi at full load

Thats my :2cents It should make a heck of a machine
 

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Dual K20s said:
What exactly is it that makes the 12 valve so un-streetable in your opinion?

I agree the common rail is the best motor for a daily driver over 800hp. Actually I think its the best race motor too, but the experience isn't there yet.

But I know a lot of people who love their ~700hp 12 valve daily drivers, and wouldn't trade them. They do work a lot better with an extra turbo though. And for a swap its probably the best to work with.

In order to get 700+hp from a 12V,the timing and fuel plate/governor combination is too radical for the street driven daily driver.The transition on some trucks is tricky to set up,they often have a blip/stumble in them around 1100RPM,and it makes daily driving them less than ideal,esp when coupled to 3.54 gears and a tight auto trans TC,getting going is smokey and sluggish until you lite the chargers,by then you've fogged out the intersection.Your other option is to basically idle around gently rolling into the throttle if you dont want to fog everyone.The lower injection pressures(than the HPCR) result in more smoke,and a lot less low end power than an HPCR engine.The common rail engine acts like a stock truck with the boxes turned off,just a touch of lag from the bigger turbos,but it behaves,starts and idles perfect,and is much more responsive,and has so much better low end,and spool up at equal HP .In all honesty,Id rather daily drive a stock 12V with a fuel plate and GSK,than an 800hp one,they are no fun unless you can open them up,and you cannot do that open the street anyway,between the smoke,lag,and power,you need a drag strip at 800hp.
 

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I'd bet if you upgraded enough other stuff you could use a 3K GSK and a 10 plate, which isn't bad to drive if you get the curve right. Then throw in a manual tranny and/or lower gears and you'd get used to it quick.
 

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The fuel plate affects the maximum rack travel. If you don't put the pedal all the way down, you never see the plate. So a plate has no affect on daily driving., It acts like a stock truck w/ bigger charger, not unlike a modified common rail. Timing has only minor effects in normal temperatures.

Yeah the throttle is a little more aggressive than on a new truck but after about a week of driving it you adjust. The same goes for an aggressive clutch in any engine. Its far from un-drivable.

12 valves are unavoidably more smoky than a common rail, but it doesn't have to be that big of a difference. Using a functional AFC and mild delivery valves (along with injectors with the correct spray angle) help a lot with smoke. People like smoke for some reason and they tend to build their truck more for a smoke show than power.

All in all yes the common rail has better manors. They have centered piston bowls, higher injection pressure, can have multiple sprays per stroke, adjustable timing, .... :blah: But they also react the same to larger chargers, and larger injectors. A 1000hp common rail may drive better than a 1000hp 12v, but it still doesn't drive like a stock truck


Ok, I'll step down now :boxing: :jk Keep it coming I'll just watch now, I'm curious to how outdated you guys think my engine of choice is :popcorn:
 

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Either way you go Im sticken with my 12v.

First off we re talking about 800hp if you have a single on a cr that supports this your not gonna turn the boxes off and have a little lag.Your just not gonna light it period. And the 70+mm framed chargers above arent gonna survive in the process long at 800hp if at all.Think bigger gt45 size.

And what the 12 valve has over those cr's is rpm. Rpm's are your friend they light turbos.
 

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My friend just put down 891 in his common rail, with a single charger, and that thing is a pig on the street. Granted he's running an Aurora 5000, and nitrous, but IDK, it just seems laggy really laggy. John D is right though, you never get the chance to open a truck like that up on the street. I've never driven a 12v of that HP so I can't really compare either.

Sounds like this guy isn't going to do a bunch of street driving though and will just be rolling around town occasionally on Fridays and mostly sled pulling with it, so it may not be too much of a concern, and he'll have to run a single for his class I'd imagine.
Sean
 
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