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Discussion Starter #1
I should have bought a Cummings
Just a friendly warning of what I learned the hard way regarding Diesel Exhaust Fluid. To make a long story short I was distracted as one of my guys went to fill up my DEF tank in my 2011 f250. Due to me taking a cell call approximately 1 gallon of the fluid was poured into the wrong tank (the diesel tank) before I noticed. If you guys don’t know the DEF and diesel fill ups holes are right next to each other on the fords (not a good idea). I am not very familiar with this fluid, I read the back of the DEF bottle and not seeing anything that concerned me about mixing a bit of the DEF in the diesel tank I did not think too much of it. I thought after all they are meant to burn together and I just filled the truck up with about 27 gallons of diesel and if it could really cause harm it would be posted on the DEF bottle. After driving it for a while, it quietly stalled and I coasted to the shoulder, turned the key a few times with no luck then had it towed. I was initially informed that it would cost $9,000 to repair the damage. After the work was performed After just getting of the phone with the ford dealer we are now up to well over $20,000.00 in damage and in need of a new engine and fuel system on a 2011 truck with 25,000 miles on it. Due to this mistake.
Ultimately the reality is that I have no one to blame for this but myself. But if one gallon of this fluid can do this and the tank fills are right next to one another I can’t help but think I’m not the first to do this.
And likely won’t be the last. After spending tens of thousands keeping a few of the past two generation ford diesels running I told myself I would never get one again. A bit back one of my company trucks diesels blow a hole in the block at 17,000 miles. That at least that $25,000 bill was covered under warranty. My other ford diesels were just endless money pits. To many Ford Diesel problems to list.
I don’t know why but I found myself at the dealer sitting in a new F250 listening to the sales men tell me how it gets over 20 miles to the gallon and how much HP it has. I was also told that I would never have to fill up the DEF tank and it would be filled only at oil changes. Ford designed it to not need to be filled between oil changes. Before I knew it I was driving a truck with way less power than I imagined averaging about 14.8 miles to the gallon as per the ford computer but I think it was lying a good bit. I was also filling up the DEF tank twice in between oil changes. So now not only do you have to make sure you have enough fuel to get places you need to keep an eye on the DEF, and the DEF Can be tough to find.
Like I said this one is my fault, but help me out a little bit. Freightliner vans have been using this fluid for several years and the fill up for the DEF is under the hood. And dodge Cummings meet emission requirements without needing DEF. I almost feel like ford designed it this way for failure to make a few extra bucks.
Man I should have got a Cummings
Below is an email I just received from the dealer

Mr. Mcdonald,
As per our discussion, I am providing you with a breakdown of what repairs have been performed and repairs still required to address the damage done to the fuel system and engine caused by the fuel contamination when the diesel exhaust fluid was added to your fuel tank.
When vehicle was towed in to Larson Ford it did not start or run. During our discussion over the phone you described to me that one of your employees had mistakenly added DEF fluid to your fuel tank and that the vehicle was then driven until it shut-off and would not restart.
Upon initial inspection the engine would not turn over either by starter or manually. When Ford was contacted to inquire about the possible effects of this contamination we found that a possible reason the engine would not turn would be due to high pressure fuel pump catastrophic failure, which would jamn the gear that is connecting the engine to the hp pump. Removal of the pump was required to see if the engine would turn. Also, this type of failure requires complete replacement and cleaning of required fuel system components.Upon obtaining authorisation for pump removal, we dissassemble to the point of pump removal and found the engine would turn manually. As we still could not start the engine, fuel system repairs were required and authorised to enable starting of the engine. the required fuel system repairs totalled $9035.00+tax which included fuel supply pump, high pressure pump, fuel injector manifolds, fuel injection steel lines, fuel injectors, fuel filters, all needed gaskets and seals. Also included removal and cleaning of fuel tank, supply and return lines.
Upon completion of fuel system repairs, vehicle started and ran, but ran rough. Engine diag for missfire determine no contribution from 2 cylinder, no compression.Informed that a partial teardown of engine was required to determine extent of repairs required to engine.Upon authorisation and teardown found several pushrods, rocker arms and valves damaged, also found valves had contacted pistons causing further damage to lower internal engine components.
When comparing replacement of damaged engine components to "longblock" replacement, it was determined that "lomgblock replacement was the most cost effective repair. Parts and labor for "longblock" replacement total additional $13997.00+tax.Bringing the total repair cost to $23032.00+tax. This total cost includes all fuel system components already replaced, all needed seals, gaskets, engine parts and fluids, and all labor charges to complete repairs.
Due to the cost of the parts required Larson Ford requires a deposit to account for parts and labor already invested in repairs and to order the engine "longblock". deposit required is $12,500.00.
If you require any other information please contact me by phone at 732-363-8100 ext. 505 as this is the most effective contact method.

Thomas Fortin
Assistant Service Manager
Larson Ford
1150 Ocean Ave
Lakewood, N.J.
08701
 

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Let it all Ride
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WOW, that's pretty darn pricey. But to be honest, I like the idea of the DEF filler neck being next to the diesel filler. It's convenient in my opinion. Good luck with your repair!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ha Ya, I see your point. But don’t forget a lot of these trucks are used in small companies where there are different drivers hoping in and out. The freightliner having it under the hood makes more sense to me now that my motor blew up
 

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So, you screw up and its Ford's fault for putting the fillers too close?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If you read what I posted I do take full responsibility for the fluid in the wrong tank. And I did post this because I was not able to find another story like it on a forum. The point being be careful or it could cost you. So no, Im not blaming ford for having the two tank opining close together but I do think that freightliner has a better setup in there van that would lessen the likely hood of this happening. I also am saying that I am filling up this tank way more than I ever thought I would. If any of you guys have a few trucks in your fleet (or more) you may want to have one guy responsible for filling the DEF tank rather than just leaving DEF around for anyone to fill up. I know most of you on here never ever screw up or make mistakes but keep the rest of the world’s dummies in mind when that occasionally don’t explain something fully or pick the right guy for the job. I would imagine many of you may never have others driving your trucks and do it all yourself, and others of you may have large fleets with a professional managing them. I’m someplace in the middle. I also learned that maybe I should open my eyes to other makes. I have 10 ford trucks and vans swap out two or three a year for new. Both my father and my grandfather drove fords. I am amazed at how loyal I have been to ford after the complete failure (in my opinion) of the last two generations of diesels. I NEED my trucks for work and when a new f450 blows a hole in the block during my peak season it costs me money. This is just one example of many issues that left guys not working. When this 450 blew it sat in the parking lot of a ford dealer in NY State for a long time ill guess over two months before I got it back. It was sitting in a line of other blown diesels. Just saying as much as some of you guys are ford groupies and loyal to one brand it doesn’t mean that brand is loyal to you.
 

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GM puts the filler under the hood and since it is only needed to refill about every 5-6000 miles, no inconvenience noted.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
GM puts the filler under the hood and since it is only needed to refill about every 5-6000 miles, no inconvenience noted.
That’s good to know, GM does have a great combo in their trucks. Every article I read comparing the new ford 6.7 to the Duramax the Duramax comes out ahead. Ford is constantly claiming higher HP and torque and the duramax smokes the ford empty or towing. The engine braking on the duramax is supposed to be great as well.
 

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Same Here

I am not very familiar with this fluid, I read the back of the DEF bottle and not seeing anything that concerned me about mixing a bit of the DEF in the diesel tank I did not think too much of it.
I would probably have thought the same, especially since the fillers are right next to each other. That just smacks of brain dead design for two reasons: 1) The majority of drivers, whether they are employees, women, or the average Joe are not going to know or care anything about this potentially disastrous problem. 2) Something with the potential to cause said disastrous results would be clearly labelled as such by the manufacturer. Do we need another FDA (Fuel and Dumb-*** Administration) to monitor, label and approve everything we put in our vehicles to protect us from ourselves?

I remember when they first started going to unleaded gasoline and made the spigots on the pumps smaller so it was literally impossible to put leaded gas in a new car calling for unleaded. That was not even a really big issue and would do no real harm, for one or even a few tanks before it fouled the cat.

People who had or have this problem should get together and file a class action lawsuit. Absolutely brain-dead unforgivable. That is of course assuming the breakdown was not just a coincidence and had nothing to do with the DEF.
 

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I read all of this on the other diesel site and it was closed, and hopefully the same here. Be professional, suck it up, it was your mistake, you admitted it or was it your employee, you cant seem to remember. Bottom line. I call BS on the whole situation..especially rambling on about all your Fords and what a POS..and then you got talked into it..and secondly, you are new with few post counts, great way to start.


MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. Thanks Jeff
 

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That’s good to know, GM does have a great combo in their trucks. Every article I read comparing the new ford 6.7 to the Duramax the Duramax comes out ahead. Ford is constantly claiming higher HP and torque and the duramax smokes the ford empty or towing. The engine braking on the duramax is supposed to be great as well.
I own both..both great..dont believe everything you read. I still prefer the Ford for towing, and with out a question for hauling heavy loads. Jeff
 

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DEF Kills Fords

MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. Thanks Jeff
So lemme guess, you either:

1) Resent the brain dead DEF fill hole design because you have to live with it so don't like hearing about it

2) Work at a Ford dealer and like the extra revenue it brings in

3) Think only posters with more than a certain thread count should be allowed to complain about brain-dead Ford designs

4) All the above

Which is it?
 

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:popcorn. As of right now I am leaving this thread open unless the OP wants it closed. Keep it on topic and not about who has the bigger badder truck.

Here is how I see it.
1) There are several mistakes here, but I do not have all the facts in the matter. Did your truck manual say anything about adding DEF and what precautions should be taken? Have you looked at a MSDS sheet for the DEF? And Has Ford proved that the DEF did the damage?
 

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not to bash one truck or another. the real question here is why would someone run a diesel, or gas, engine after pouring 5 gallons of what is mostly water into it. seems to be asking for trouble. i found out i had added about 1 quart of gas engine oil into my 2002 ford diesel. i immediately drained the entire 14 quarts and refilled with the right stuiff. why do anything to risk the engine.
 

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This is a pretty typical response to an extremely expensive repair. When I was building race motors I sold an engine identical to the one in my own car. I explained he needed to break it in and watch the oil level because the combination consumed a little oil from windage and crankcase ventilation losses. He put it in his customer's car and sent the guy on his way to the track. About a month later I get a call that the thing pitched a rod bearing. I asked them to drain the oil and and hold it for me to come inspect it. He tells me there wasn't any oil in the pan. I asked him what the oil pressure was and he says it was low from the minute he fired it. Mine idled at 60psi cold and 40psi hot. So I ask how many quarts he put in it and he says 12. It should have taken 5, and I ask why he put 12 in it. He tells me he put a dry sump on it. So I ask him what pan he's using and he tells me the one I installed. I ask him more about how he plumbed it and what he tells me next blows my mind. He says, "your motor failed because it didn't have any oil pressure, what does it matter what I did to it!"

That was a $15k mistake on his part. If you, or your employee do something to damage the vehicle, it's not the fault of the vehicle, the vehicle manufacturer, or the products you may have used improperly. It's your responsibility to learn the proper maintenance procedures to operate and maintain the vehicle and to instruct anyone in your employ on the same. "I didn't know." "They should have built it differently!" "I should have never bought this because something else is obviously better" don't have any place in this discussion. In fact, based on your treatment of this truck it's probably safe to say that many of your past problems could have been avoided as well. Don't think you'd be any happier in a Chevy, Dodge, or GMC. They all have issues with something or other, I've had many an encounter with guys driving other brands complaining about their own trucks and asking if the Ford is really as bad as they hear on the Internet. Next time you want to title a post this way, put it in one of the Off Topic forums or title it correctly:

Warning: Don't put DEF in the fuel tank

Edit: Oh, and it's Cummins. No G.
 

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So lemme guess, you either:

1) Resent the brain dead DEF fill hole design because you have to live with it so don't like hearing about it

2) Work at a Ford dealer and like the extra revenue it brings in

3) Think only posters with more than a certain thread count should be allowed to complain about brain-dead Ford designs

4) All the above

Which is it?


#5. None of the above. It's a BS thread and you guys are getting sucked in to it. There is nothing wrong with the design, a child could figure it out...Plain and simple...Nadir..you in his back pocket...read and educate yourself if thats at all possible.
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f149/man-i-should-have-got-cummins-287447/
 

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It's like nobody ever put gasoline in the tank before either, huh?

Stupid owners.

Wonder if a Ford engineer will chime in with the excuse they did it that way because they already went over budget with the massive EGR coolers? :poke
 

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It's like nobody never put gasoline in the tank before either, huh?

Stupid owners.

Wonder if a Ford engineer will chime in with the excuse they did it that way because they already went over budget with the massive EGR coolers? :poke

Both different colors on caps..in bold letters it clearly states what goes where.. 2 different size holes.. yes accidents happen..but ya'll need to slow down, get off those cell phones and concentrate or be more aware of what you are doing. Its way more convient there, why should we have to open the hood when its right there...and secondly..Dodge will have it next year:bdh
 

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Burning Water, Huh?

the real question here is why would someone run a diesel, or gas, engine after pouring 5 gallons of what is mostly water into it.
Plz excuse my ignorance, not really up on the newest models, esp. the Fords. So this DEF is basically some stuff in a water carrier that gets injected into the exhaust somewhere to alter the emission profile?
 

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Plz excuse my ignorance, not really up on the newest models, esp. the Fords. So this DEF is basically some stuff in a water carrier that gets injected into the exhaust somewhere to alter the emission profile?
The system injects UREA or DEF into the exhaust system prior to the DPF.

My Adobe reader is not working but I have found many MSDS sheets that will tell you whats in it.
 

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Wow, injecting water (+ whatever) in the exhaust to burn the emissions. Must make the exhaust quite toasy, I'd imagine. Wonderful. I like injecting water-meth in the cylinders to increase power and cool the exhaust. I bought my first diesel (avatar) for among other things, the simplicity and reliability of it. Also got one of the last of the Dodge 5.9's before they started the DPF nonsense. Now I hear the gubmit is introducing tighter emission standards for ALL vehicles, starting in a couple years.

I may never buy another.
 
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