[swatkins]

Ok I'm back

I am a paramedic and at work today so this posting stuff is sometimes hard to work in

A little about my truck...

The engine is completely stock, no finger sticks, blocker plates, chips, tunes, exhaust mods or any other engine modifications... The electrical system is completely stock and I am on my original set of batteries. The transmission is stock with the exception of the fluid being changed to transdyne (sp) and I was using the factory set of tires for these runs. I have just changes to a new set of tires but they are the same size as installed at the factory.

The only engine compartment mods are as follows... TxChristopher CAI, V2 mod with fan and Fan Damn electric fan prototype.

There are no stack shields. There are no extra air holes or vents cut into the truck anywhere. There are no air dams or shields installed that are not part of the production products kits.. In other words if you install these products you get everything that is on my truck, nothing else is needed.

There is one extra screw that is not in a factory location but that was installed by me when I was playing around with a mounting bracket and not in the production version of any of these products.. All current products mount with existing holes and I must say it was quite clever of TxChrisopher to make this happen

The only other mods I have are good temp gauges for oil and water, velvet shackles on the rear springs, good shocks, Nerf bars, extra fuel tank/ tool box combo and a 5th wheel hitch. That's it.. Any more and the wife would kill me


Now onto my relationship with TxChristopher..

I have been reading the LLY overheating threads for a long time.. I have owned a 01, 04 and now an 05 Duramax truck.. I came to know Tx from his postings on another board..

I like testing things and figuring out way to make things work I have a machine shop and can make parts like the shrouds you see pictures of... Last summer we spent countless hours together trying out Tx's new ideas and seeing if they would work pulling my load.. 99% failed I am sorry to say but what works really works well

I made a few of the parts for the Fan Damn on my truck.. He supplied all the materials and I tried to improve on the original shroud he made... It was a lot of work for very little gain so the original design is what he has manufactured.

I own no part of his company, make not a dime on anything he sells and have no interest in this except to see people get help with their trucks. IF he ever tries to pass something off as working when it does not I would be shocked and I will come down on him like a ton of bricks! I know where he lives and he can't hide from me :watchout

I take care of his website and get to pay half the cost of the forum That is the only relationship I have with the guy...

All in all I am very happy with the performance of my truck with the cooling mods..

Here is a little post I made last summer...

Went Pulling Today

Today I put the fan kit through what I feel was it's toughest test so far.

I took the rig on a 4 hour trip in 95 degree weather. I was in a hurry and trying to get to the RV park before it got dark so I was heavy on the pedal and speeds were in the 68 to 72 MPH range... The land was pretty flat and didn't figure into what made this trip special....

What made this trip special was the wind... I was fighting steady head winds of 22 mph and gusts over 30, going 70 mph, weighing 21,800 gross, pulling a full front 13'8" tall fifth wheel and not giving a damn

I was watching the DIC for fuel usage and was not surprised to see it hitting only 7.0 mpg... I was really pouring the fuel to the old girl Oil temps were reading 210 degrees as measured going into the engine just after the factory oil cooler... Highest ECT was 210 degrees measured going into the main radiator on the gauge I installed and the oil temp went up to 230 here,... That was going up a bridge in some really rough wind gusts.

I will fill up in the morning and get a hand calculated mpg just to make sure of the numbers...

I am ready for the big test on I-8 now.... BRING IT ON !

Quote:
Originally Posted by dh515
Sounds great. Are you still running the electric fans and if so, any update on their availability?



Yep this is still the all electric setup.... Hand calculated the mileage and it was 6.9 mpg.... Coming home today there was a 12 MPH head wind, going the same speeds and the mpg was up to 9 mpg.. Not great but I still had all the power I needed and no fan


I don't know what Tx's plans are with the availability... That's his baby, I am just the test mule

I misspoke in the post where I explained the location of the oil temp sensor.. It is located after the factory oil cooler just before it goes into the engine,... Guess I am getting old and forgetful

Anyone have any questions for me?

Thanks for your time...

Steve

 

[TxChristopher]

No games, just RESULTS

There are other people running the same combo. None of this is top secret or anything, to hear it bashed by killerbee was both a suprise and a shock since no owner has had a bad experience yet. Quite the opposite, everyone is pleased with the performance, power, responsiveness, and mileage they gained.

I am straightforward about everything, either something works or it doesn't, thats the bottom line. You won't get any sugar coatings here, but rather open talk, and honest testing with clear publicly posted test results. I could flood this board with satisfied people. :woot:

When someone who actually has the equipment in question comes forward and complains then we can have a "can or can't or does or doesn't" discussion, but for killerbee to just come out of nowhere and make damaging comments about things he has never personally even SEEN much less TRIED or even so much as TALKED to anyone that has these things is pure BS. :damnit

Catch ya'll later!

opcorn:

 

[killerbee]

From Post 1

The smaller LLY fan pulley is a tragic production mistake. The fan drive ratio was increased out of optimum, by an engineer who needs to go back to school. The highest fan speed when engaged, is a realized reduction of airflow, and increase in parasitic drag, compared to the LB7 pulley. Replacing it will net fuel economy benefits in all regimes, and is one of the main reasons for observed mpg decreases in LLY vehicles.

The fan is suppose to be an axial device, pulling air through in a straight line. the increased speed of the LLY fan makes it perform more like a centrifugal device, shrouded by an axial shroud design. The net effect of this is heaps more turbulence, and centrifugal overflow of this high pressure heated air, right into the low pressure intake. The result of preheated intake air is left for separate discussion, but it is key to the D-max heat issues.

It was determined, by Mitchagain and myself, in my own driveway, in Jun of 05, that the most significant cooling system change was the change of this fan pulley. I thoroughly researched the possible reasons for this change, and the ramifications of going from a fan drive ratio of 1.29 (lb7) to 1.45 (LLY), and found that even the LB7 fan was on the verge of overdriven, but barely within industry norms.

The slower LB7 pulley fan speed increases throughput through the stack, and reduces parasitic drag, and at the same time has a lower IAT increasing effect, part of the thermal feedback issue that creates excess CAC heat in front of the radiator.

As for the commentary about worthless oil temp gauges, The stock LLY motor oil routinely goes over 300 degrees pulling, and that is before defuel or overheat warnings. The oil temp gauge should be installed from the factory, but GM is content to keep that issue from being exposed, just as they were with the 2nd gen vettes, and clearly hot oil is always a product of a flawed cooling system.

If I understand your setup correctly, it includes:

an added radiator mounted under the existing, facing the ground, with 2 attached relay controlled, thermostatically actuated, electric fans, PLUS the replacement of the stock fan with 2 more shrouded electric fans with similar related hardware , wiring, ****pit switches, thermostats, etc. Plus a 50 amp nominal draw on the already challenged 145 alternator which maybe has a 90 amp capacity at normal rpms. I'm sure you will point out if I got any detail wrong, but i think it is pretty clear.

To fix a fan overdrive issue, I can't advocate anyone put 4 electric fans, unless considering another $300-$1000 for an oversized alt or dual alts. This solution has no practicality from my point of view, and falls outside rational engineering allowances for complexity and reliability. Reliability has to come first. But that's just one idiots opinion.

A good CAI and a TD-EOC, nets the same results with far less risk of failure, and a quarter of the cost. No moving parts, motors, wiring insulation to protect. No stitches to fail, no relays to protect from heat damage, in fact it does not require the elimination of a single factory component. Rather, in it's simplicity, it merely routes oil (coolant) to an effective heat removing location, using the oil pump the truck already has. If you want to add the LB7 pulley, it's not that hard to do. It restores your fan drive ratio to optimum, removing 30-40% of the parasitic drag it creates, and adding 20% cooling airflow. It is a relatively cheap, and reliable change, and your dealer will never notice it. But once the TD-EOC is installed, the fan is a "mute" point most of the time on stock trucks.

It is noteworthy to point out, forward airspeed helps the overdriven factory fan. Low forward speed hinders it. It is not unlike any other axial gas pump. Restoring the proper fan drive ratio makes it so much more effective at lower vehicle speeds with high rpm's. Never pull at over 2600 rpm if you have cooling issues. Strive to maintain around 2200 to 2400 max. If this requires a gear change and 10 mph concession, just accept it.

 

[swatkins]

Killer bee...

I will make the same deal with you as I did with TxChristopher..

Send me the products you sell and I will place them on my truck...I'll pay for all the fuel and take time off from work to perform the same tests I performed for Txchristopher.

I will pull the exact same loads and report the honest data.. I can log almost every engine sensor and have data logging temperature probes for up to 8 locations. I will run the truck and trailer over the same testing course and compare it to the data I have collected with the current setup.

You'll get a fair test, an honest report and we can then throw all the theory, heated argument, name calling, bashing out the window and get on with having fun with our trucks.

I look forward to working with you to put an end to this matter..

Steve

 

[killerbee]

Steve,

I don't think I am going to take you up on your offer, but thanks. There is over a million miles on this now and testing was finished a year ago. But it is on sale for another 2 weeks.

This thread is about fans and whether or not a fan change can double speed up a grade.

I think everyone can agree that is not the case, and the opening post took something out of context. I do believe that grade pulling speed increases dramatically when the cooling system works, and the charge air temp is contained. These things make sense. I even agree it is possible to double speed up a 10% grade (yours, check the math) with some substantial improvements. Just that changing a fan alone doesn't do that. There is a significant underlying reason for performance increases on grades, that have little to do with the surface parasitic drag of the fan. Every HP made available, without loading the cooling system, helps keep the speed up so that the cooling system can do its job. Since I need a fan, I elect just spinning it slower.

In almost every case of LLY heatup, the slower the truck slugs down, the more precipitous the overheat. Almost inevitably, slowing to a crawl as the intake charge spirals out of control.

I agree with a lot of what is discussed here.

 

[TxChristopher]

The man said to bring facts, you brought more garbage

From Post 1



It was determined, by Mitchagain and myself, in my own driveway, in Jun of 05, that the most significant cooling system change was the change of this fan pulley. I thoroughly researched the possible reasons for this change, and the ramifications of going from a fan drive ratio of 1.29 (lb7) to 1.45 (LLY), and found that even the LB7 fan was on the verge of overdriven, but barely within industry norms.

The slower LB7 pulley fan speed increases throughput through the stack, and reduces parasitic drag, and at the same time has a lower IAT increasing effect, part of the thermal feedback issue that creates excess CAC heat in front of the radiator.

As for the commentary about worthless oil temp gauges, The stock LLY motor oil routinely goes over 300 degrees pulling, and that is before defuel or overheat warnings. The oil temp gauge should be installed from the factory, but GM is content to keep that issue from being exposed, just as they were with the 2nd gen vettes, and clearly hot oil is always a product of a flawed cooling system.

If I understand your setup correctly, it includes:

an added radiator mounted under the existing, facing the ground, with 2 attached relay controlled, thermostatically actuated, electric fans, PLUS the replacement of the stock fan with 2 more shrouded electric fans with similar related hardware , wiring, ****pit switches, thermostats, etc. Plus a 50 amp nominal draw on the already challenged 145 alternator which maybe has a 90 amp capacity at normal rpms. I'm sure you will point out if I got any detail wrong, but i think it is pretty clear.

To fix a fan overdrive issue, I can't advocate anyone put 4 electric fans, unless considering another $300-$1000 for an oversized alt or dual alts. This solution has no practicality from my point of view, and falls outside rational engineering allowances for complexity and reliability. Reliability has to come first. But that's just one idiots opinion.

A good CAI and a TD-EOC, nets the same results with far less risk of failure, and a quarter of the cost. No moving parts, motors, wiring insulation to protect. No stitches to fail, no relays to protect from heat damage, in fact it does not require the elimination of a single factory component. Rather, in it's simplicity, it merely routes oil (coolant) to an effective heat removing location, using the oil pump the truck already has. If you want to add the LB7 pulley, it's not that hard to do. It restores your fan drive ratio to optimum, removing 30-40% of the parasitic drag it creates, and adding 20% cooling airflow. It is a relatively cheap, and reliable change, and your dealer will never notice it. But once the TD-EOC is installed, the fan is a "mute" point most of the time on stock trucks.

It is noteworthy to point out, forward airspeed helps the overdriven factory fan. Low forward speed hinders it. It is not unlike any other axial gas pump. Restoring the proper fan drive ratio makes it so much more effective at lower vehicle speeds with high rpm's. Never pull at over 2600 rpm if you have cooling issues. Strive to maintain around 2200 to 2400 max. If this requires a gear change and 10 mph concession, just accept it.

Ok, first things first, you have completely abandoned the babbling of how it doesn't work in the first place. I take this as a concession by you now that it does. The mods said either come with evidence it doesn't work or back away. Is your way of backing away this feeble attempt to flee your first assertions and instead try to attempt to knock down the system in other ways??????

For this discussion, which you started, we aren't talking any characteristics of the stock fan at all other than we got rid of it. So it is irrelevant what you think the stock fan can or can't do. You said the man could not double his rate of speed. I find nothing in your post about that. NOTHING. You made no attempt whatsoever to refute anything said or any of the hard numbers posted.

I'm sure you will point out if I got any detail wrong, but i think it is pretty clear.

The only thing you made clear is that you have no idea about the system you are attempting to knock down. The radiator is not "facing the ground'. There are only 3 fans maximum involved, not 4. Even further, the V2 itself is sufficient to defeat the overheating without any fan at all, so we could make it 2 if we wanted. Can't get below 2 though because the whole point was to eliminate the power sucking and noisy engine fan. Even completely freewheeling that monster eats 10 - 15 horsepower CONSTANTLY. There are no ****pit switches added, so again you know not what you are talking about. There are no thermostats added, thats YOUR system that adds that, so AGAIN you don't know what you are talking about. Without failures yet I guess thats a mute point too.

As for power draw, the truck operate fine on a single fan that runs at partial speed and pulls maybe 11 amps. The rest are dormant until needed. I think we can spare 11 amps here and there. with two batteries providing at least 1200 amps and a 145 amp alternator on top of that, not to mention some trucks have two alternators, I think we have some power to spare. People seem to be doing fine with 1200 watts or more of stereos. A couple hundred watts of fans is nothing.

If we are talking about the negatives, lets talk about the 15 seconds of zero oil pressure your bearings must experience at startup after every oil change that your TD-EOC causes to happen. Even further, there still has been no definitive proof that it will even prevent a serious overheating truck from overheating. The only published instrumented test resulted in 242* or higher engine temperatures in only moderate outside temps. The fact that you insist on concessions such as slow down or don't run a certain RPM means it cannot cover those envelopes of operation. There are NO restrictions on my stuff. NONE. Owners can keep the boost stick or whatever tuner, all they need to do is just drive.

But that's just one idiots opinion.

That part I absolutely DO agree with 100%. You are an idiot. We see eye to eye on that. :Thumbup:

Anyway, we aren't talking about the TD-EOC or the V2, we are talking about YOUR COMMENTS saying that the all electric system does not perform. Thats what you laid out as the topic of this thread, that it was a "myth".

Mods, if he has nothing to say to answer to the facts brought forth, and instead chooses to head off in other directions, I ask you to refrain him from commenting about the electric solution, especially negatively. Baseless claims meant with only the purpose of damaging reputation have no place here on this nice site.

 

[TxChristopher]

Steve,

I don't think I am going to take you up on your offer, but thanks.

You will NEVER see an instrumented test of a TD-EOC on a proven overheat truck because it will not pass the test. This is no different than diet pills, they are sold based on owner testimonials because there is no real proof they work.


This product demands you change the way you drive or remove performance enhancing equipment from it for it to come close to working. If that is your definition of a fix, then you got the right guy. But if you expect to be able to leave your truck floored to maintain speed up the steepest, meanest, hottest grades out there while towing high drag heavy trailers ...... well .. . . ... I strongly suggest you look elsewhere.

Since this thread is deemed to be "bring the facts" by the mods, lets see some data and test methodology that says otherwise. No testimonials, no owners who didn't overheat before they put it on and still don't overheat now (imagine that!), just hard data.

Easy enough it seems.

opcorn:

 

[killerbee]

In defense only, there are a number of TD-EOC testimonials HERE .

I have nothing to add to this thread, as it is now completely off-topic and full of agenda attacks, the usual drama. I would think it will be locked down by the end of the day.

 

[swatkins]

In defense only, there are a number of TD-EOC testimonials HERE .

I have nothing to add to this thread, as it is now completely off-topic and full of agenda attacks, the usual drama. I would think it will be locked down by the end of the day.

I went to this link you posted, then removed from your above post... http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forum...ad.php?t=22176 I did not see anything revelant there.

I also went to the yahoo link... How do I get access to that information.. Do I need a yahoo account or anything special?

Thanks
Steve

 

[killerbee]

You just have to join the group Steve. That allows access to a myriad of actual data.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TD-EOC

 

[swatkins]

You just have to join the group Steve. That allows access to a myriad of actual data.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TD-EOC

Alright I did it ... I used an old yahoo address I forgot I had I am on there as sw3823....


Just a short note about the electrical usage on my truck...

The fans on the radiator have been going at 100% almost the entire time I have had them installed... The major exception to that was when I took the test trip to California this year.. Both fans were set to normal operations for that trip.. The computers controlled their operations.

The V2 fan runs only under extreme condition towing so we can throw out it's power drain...

The main rad fans would not have been running most of this winter if they had been set for normal operating conditions and not for a longevity test.

I have noticed no ill effects from the drain of the fans on my truck. the batteries are still in great shape.. Are not hot to the touch when in use... and the voltage fluctuations are small. So far , in my real life test, it has been a non issue. Sometimes you just have to make something and put it on a truck to test it out...

I really wish you would reconsider my offer to get you some hard numbers pulling a load on a established test route with other numbers to compare to.. I promise to send your unit back after the tests, I'm sure you could at least sell it for cost to someone that wants one. So nothing would be out of your pocket and I'll pay for the fuel and diet cokes

 

[TxChristopher]

Since this thread is deemed to be "bring the facts" by the mods, lets see some data and test methodology that says otherwise. No testimonials, no owners who didn't overheat before they put it on and still don't overheat now (imagine that!), just hard data.

In defense only, there are a number of TD-EOC testimonials ......

Thank you for making my point so well, your answer to "no testimonials" was to post links to testimonials. At least you consistently dodge providing the public any instrumented before and after test results. Impressive. :Thumbup:

 

[444turbodiesel]

It sounds to me like both systems have their advantages. Personally, I'd look for symplicity, and if a larger fan pulley fixed the problem (with or without an aux oil cooler) I'd try that first before redesigning the entire cooling system's airflow. As most people are well aware, all modern gassers (cars) have electric fans, so their reliability is not in question; the complexity of the system for an average Joe might be a bit daunting especially if something goes wrong out on the road (diagnosis of electrical issues is never fun). Using OEM parts (sometimes in non-OEM applications) has always been my mod of choice.

I'm just glad I drive a Fordoke:

 

[Guest]

Guys...I am going to lock this thread down until I get a better chance to review whats going on. This looks a lot like the Stealth/Terminator pizzing match that went on...'cept here involves a cooling system.

Once reviewed...I will PM both parties involved as to decisions that have been made.

Thanks
Dave