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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm having some problems with my work truck and hope you guys can help.

2004 International 4200 VT365 6.0L 6 Speed Manual 24' Box Truck.

Thursday evening, February 24, I was delivering a load of parts from Oklahoma City to Amarillo. The engine light came on, and it started progressively losing power. I hit the next exit, pushed in the clutch and it died. I let the clutch back out and it fired back up. I pulled into a station parking lot and it seemed to idle fine. I did not try to drive it any further. I shut it off and tried to restart. It would crank over, but would not start back up. I quickly rented a Uhaul and got my delivery to Amarillo made (I got lucky as it was after midnight).
Returned back to the truck around 8am. Put the key in and she fired right up. I let it idle for about 15 minutes, and it seemed to be fine. I was apprehensive about driving it (and I still had the Uhaul to deal with), so I shut it off. It wouldn't restart.
Called an emergency diesel service to get it towed, diagnosed and repaired, as I need the truck to work. He got it to their shop and tried cranking it several times with no luck. He sprayed starter fluid into the breather and it fired right up. He did this two separate times. Both times it fired right up, but would not fire without the starter fluid.
After getting the engine up to operating temp, he shut it down and ran his diagnostic software. After several cranking tests, he found the HPOP was only pumping 265 psi. From what he said, it needs to have at least 500 psi to start.
After an hour of futzing around, he comes out with an estimate a little over $3,200. HPOP, ICP, IPR and related supplies. I give him the go ahead, parts will be there on Tuesday, they can reassemble and I can pick the truck up Wednesday. I do have parts to haul, so I leased a truck to get me by for the week. Since I am working and didn't really have the time to go get it anyway, I let it slide until Thursday, March 3rd. I called him to see how it was going and he tells me the parts had just arrived and they were working on it.
He would call by the end of the day to give me an update.........no call.

He calls me Friday, March 4 and tells me good news and bad news. He said he installed the parts and it fired right up. Got it to operating temps and when he went to test drive it, it died. He said he did some looking and a hose under the driver side valve cover had developed a leak. He ordered and replaced it, and it was running fine.

I picked the truck up Monday, March 7 and drove my parts route all week. It ran great until Friday on my way back from Tulsa. Not long after I got on the toll road, the engine light comes on and it starts doing the same thing over again (thinking back to Friday, I seem to remember it was taking a little longer cranking over before it would start. Not a huge amount, but definitely longer every time I went to start it). All week, I was thinking I should also replace the hose under the passenger side valve cover just to be safe. I called the International parts house in Oklahoma City and had my brother pick up the hose and bring it to me. Turned out to be the wrong hose, but I did get the correct one on Saturday. Still wouldn't start.

I had it towed to a shop here in OKC, and they will be looking at it tomorrow morning. With the almost $4,000, plus leasing a truck while this one was down, I really don't have a lot of $$$$ to drop into this at the moment.

So, what do you guys think could be the problem?

BTW, it doesn't throw any codes?????
 

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if the engine light is coming on then it should be logging a code, your problem sounds like a icp issue, sounds like the repair shop put a band-aid on it and the problem may have never been fixed. when the oil is cold its thicker and depending on the size of the leak the cold oil can start and run the engine fine till it gets hot and thins out, thats when you have problems, need to leak test the icp system to find the leak. just replaceing parts because its not building proper icp wont fix it. where ever you take the truck the need to find the leak, may need to get the engine hot to find it for sure. can remove the icp sensor and connect air pressure that way. common to have a injector leak or seals at the high pressure pump area. post back with a update when you can.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply dog.

It's odd that it doesn't put any codes, unless it won't show them on the odometer display. There are only two showing. One for the HVAC mode motor and one for something loosing connection with the ECM. Both have been there since before I bought the truck.

Just spoke with the shop. They are so packed with work it is going to be a couple of days before they can even get to it. I guess I am going to have to lease a truck again.....
 

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Looks like the shop is on a fishing expedition and you are paying for their trip!

Low ICP can be from one or many things, it is OBVIOUS that they did not fully diagnose the problem on the first attempt but guessed. There are well documented ways to PROVE various components are good or bad, it does not seem like they proved anything was actually "bad" until they found the leak in the ICP connector hose.

The fact that you have the hose under the valve cover means this is an "early" engine, they were not known for being troublesome (STC fittings particularly). The fact that it starts COLD but not Warm or Hot is THE CLUE that there is an ICP leak or control fault. This potential leakage is EASILY detected by applying shop air to the system and verifying correct voltage to the IPR valve under load. But, special tools are needed to do these test well and quickly, tools I bet they do not have or know about.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks John.

I'm sure the first shop was on a fishing expedition. They are a big truck shop, and from the end result, are just parts throwers.....at others expense. In the end, I think it would have been cheaper to have it towed the 130 miles back to Oklahoma City and repaired here....

The shop it is at now came very highly recommended from several friends that all use them for their medium duty trucks. I'm just hoping the problem is just seals or some other inexpensive problem and not injectors.

I am a gas engine guy, so am kind of limited in the diagnosis of diesels. I have no problem getting my hands dirty to make repairs, but I don't have access to the size of shop needed to undertake something like this. I also do not have the specialty tools you mentioned.

It is odd that it did not log any codes.

Something else strange about the engine. According to the VIN, the engine is a 2003/early 2004. Trying to get the hose from International for the passenger side, nothing matched up. It was close, but the 90 degree bend at the end was turned the wrong way. None of the diagrams matched the layout of my engine. I finally took a try at calling Ford about a 6.0L Powerstroke, and everything matched perfectly. I don't know what to think about that.
 

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You can call me French
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After an hour of futzing around, he comes out with an estimate a little over $3,200. HPOP, ICP, IPR and related supplies. I give him the go ahead, parts will be there on Tuesday, they can reassemble and I can pick the truck up Wednesday.
sounds like a hpop dieing to me. they are a known problem on the early motors.
Already replace the HPOP, ICP, and IPR.... There is a leak somewhere in the system.

Hope you get it figured out soon, I know how it is being without your truck when it is your money maker.

-French
 
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At this age, with no misfire, my guess is Case to Head tube seals, you CANNOT replace the seals, new tubes must be fitted. Not costly or time consuming, except for the proving it part.

It *could* be all 8 injectors, but that is unlikely. If each injector had slightly excessive ICP leakage, multiply that by 8 and you have a big problem in terms of ICP leakage. But, you should log an "unable to build" code at each hot start attempt and I don't think that is the case.

If there are no codes, my guess - and that is ALL it is, would be the EGR valve. There is NO WAY I would replace it on the evidence we have however, I need to seee engine cranking DATA to make that call.
 

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i think the reason why your not seeing any fault codes is because your year model truck doesnt diplay engine fault codes on the cluster-only esc...aka electrical system controller...aka body/chassis electronics, you would need something that could talk with the engine ecm to pull codes, and im going to bet that it will have a 333 or 335 icp unable to build while cranking fault code. John is right about the injectors if they all have a little bleed off times 8 then it adds up quick to low icp, but thats why with the proper tools and a leak test its fairly quick sometimes to diagnoise the leak.
 

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The DTCs (fault codes) are stored in the ECM regardless of if they are displayed on the LCD or not, no "good" tech would EVER look only at the LCD for codes.

If the ECM loggs a DTC, you WILL get a CEL/MIL regardless telling the operator that the ECM has logged a code. Now, chasing INactive codes that do not return after clearing is a TOTAL FISHING EXPEDITION and wast of the customer's hard-earned $$$$$$$$. That is, unless they are reporting an INTERMITTANT problem and the inactive codes are clearly related to the concern.

The reason? You don't KNOW when the inactive codes were logged, it might have been 5 seconds or 5 years ago and there is no need to go chasing a 5 year old code that is not recurring.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
The CEL came on right before it started losing power both times. While trying to restart it, and after the first guy sprayed starter fluid and got the engine started, the CEL did not light. The first guy was using a laptop and interface while doing the cranking tests.

I will be putting together an interface and laptop to carry in the truck from now on. The LCD display was the only thing I had at the time to try and determine what the problem was. I wasn't relying on it, just trying to gather as much information as I possibly could under the circumstances.
 

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sounds similar to the problem i had. mine had a cranking pressure of 247psi my shop found the o-rings on the dummy plugs were blown out. parts and labor $345 starts in under 2 sec. cranks hot or ice cold
 

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The CEL came on right before it started losing power both times....
I wasn't relying on it, just trying to gather as much information as I possibly could under the circumstances.
You sound like EXACTLY the type of customer I would want to have, one that pays attention and will take a little extra effort to see that you don't wate your time and his money trying to figure something out when one piece of information could have pointed me in the right direction on the initial visit.

That is great to hear and I wish there were more people like you that operated trucks!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Just talked to the new shop.

The scan is showing shorted ICP and IPR. He told me the connectors for these are spliced and have been burned. He didn't say whether they were burned because of the splice or were spliced because of the burn, but there is a definite problem there. He was going to try a different IPR to see if the new one was bad.

Leak test came back good.
 

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Excellant! Hopefully that is all they find and are able to repair easily. New "pigtails" are readily available from the dealer for both should that be needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well, looks like I misunderstood the last call with the shop.

When the guy pulled the ICP and the IPR, he found a bunch of crap in the filter and a big piece of o-ring lodged inside the IPR. A leak test showed something wrong around the HPOP area, so back apart it came. Looks like when the first shop went to re-assemble everything, they either got in a hurry, didn't get everything out of the way, or were just incompetent boobs. I'm guessing the last one. In any case there was an o-ring that got tweaked upon re-assembly, went to crap under pressure and eventually ended up in the IPR.

Looks like an attorney is in my future. I have almost $3,800 paid to that shop and around another $1.5K in towing and truck rental because mine was down.
 
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