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Senior Member
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Discussion Starter #1
This should make some people happy> I am starting a new thread so the off topic thhead about will FORD ever offer a 6 Speed manual can get back on topic. and so others won't get their undies in a bunch.:roflol:
 

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Dually Club #3
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Thank you. Now my undies are unwound, feels much better :roflol:

As far as the topic goes, I have seen on three different occasions here in Norcal deadly accidents from people driving an SUV with a RV that was over the weight (manufactures GCVW) of the SUV. There are two grades here that are short but steep and these drivers get out of control and flip thier trucks. In one instance the guys two little girls were ejected and killed. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be stopped.
 

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Senior Member
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Discussion Starter #3
I am glad to help.:wave Yes overloaded pickup trucks are completely different than a overloaded Semi that just needs a overload permit. Pickup trucks that are overloaded are just plain dangerous.Most accidents in my part of the country happen when the overloaded truck. can not stop or flips on it's side while turning or pulling over on to a soft shoulder of the road. It happens a lot with the farmers trying to get everylast bit of grain into the haul box than they drive the wobbly thing back to the farm too fast and it turns over. Spilling it all over the road. now the clean up comes lost grain lost time cleanup costs fines from the state cops county cleanup the drainage ditch. all for what? no profit in lost product.
You must admit though that the Manual argument was like :bdha moot point. The manual is DEAD for now. Get used to it.Learn new things. Adapt,Expand your horizons, And smile more:mafia1:You will survive.
 

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no sir ,an overloaded semi is no different then a overloaded pickup. if anything it's even more dangerous. an overload that taxes a vehicles suspenson and tires is indeed dangerous, but many so called overloads are hauled daily and are within the vehicles axle and tires limits. same can be said for the trailer also.
 

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no sir ,an overloaded semi is no different then a overloaded pickup. if anything it's even more dangerous. an overload that taxes a vehicles suspenson and tires is indeed dangerous, but many so called overloads are hauled daily and are within the vehicles axle and tires limits. same can be said for the trailer also.
i have to disagree on this. how often do you 3/4 & 1 ton trucks hauling way more than they are designed for? it is not uncommon for these trucks to be pulling gooseneck trailers with hay,equipment, nursery,cattle & so forth with electric brakes that may or may not work when they need them to. i have hauled loads with my 1 ton truck that i shouldn't have but did anyway. i also have hauled cattle with a 50 ft. livestock trailer grossing 85K, while this was too much it didn't strain the equipment as much accordingly as the gooseneck does the ton truck.
 

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Dually Club #3
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I am glad to help.:wave Yes overloaded pickup trucks are completely different than a overloaded Semi that just needs a overload permit. Pickup trucks that are overloaded are just plain dangerous.Most accidents in my part of the country happen when the overloaded truck. can not stop or flips on it's side while turning or pulling over on to a soft shoulder of the road. It happens a lot with the farmers trying to get everylast bit of grain into the haul box than they drive the wobbly thing back to the farm too fast and it turns over. Spilling it all over the road. now the clean up comes lost grain lost time cleanup costs fines from the state cops county cleanup the drainage ditch. all for what? no profit in lost product.
You must admit though that the Manual argument was like :bdha moot point. The manual is DEAD for now. Get used to it.Learn new things. Adapt,Expand your horizons, And smile more:mafia1:You will survive.

I don't know much about semi's as I do not and never have had a CDL. But overloaded is overloaded. I would think that even getting a special permit would still require the truck (tires, axles, suspension, etc) to be rated to carry the load. I would think that getting a permit to go over these weights would put someone in a huge liability situation.
 

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i have to disagree on this. how often do you 3/4 & 1 ton trucks hauling way more than they are designed for? it is not uncommon for these trucks to be pulling gooseneck trailers with hay,equipment, nursery,cattle & so forth with electric brakes that may or may not work when they need them to. i have hauled loads with my 1 ton truck that i shouldn't have but did anyway. i also have hauled cattle with a 50 ft. livestock trailer grossing 85K, while this was too much it didn't strain the equipment as much accordingly as the gooseneck does the ton truck.
You got that right! Thier are too many people with pick-up trucks either pulling or loaded with too much weight. I would love to see the local and state police step up and start giving out fines to these people that choose to put the public at risk.
 

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An overloaded semi still has to fall within the bridge law even with a permit. That is why they have more axles and the longer length. Most trucks have 40k tandems with a GVWR of 52k but on a set of tandems you cannot load more than 34k legally by law but a split axle trailer can have 40k legally. Grossing 85k in a semi is normal. The heavy hauler trucks are the same as any other truck except for the occasional pusher axle. A normal semi without a pusher axle can pull 150k or more with the right trailer set up but has to get a permit since it is over 80k. Even though the trucks are designed to pull 80k they are still safe pulling 150k. These are usually escorted not because they can't stop and are unsafe which are safe but usually because they are too wide or too long or both.

How do the manufacturers come up with the GCVWR? To get the GCVWR you take the truck's and trailer's GVWR and add them to get the GCVWR. I think that the manufacturers come up with the GCVWR so that it can pull at X speed and maintain that speed up hills. Because if you look the higher the rear end the lower the GCVWR.

So is a 1 ton truck pulling a bumper trailer that is tandem axle with singles with one braking axle at the manufacturers GCVWR max safer than somebody pulling a gooseneck trailer with tandem duals with both axles braking at the max GCVWR that is set with the truck's and the trailer's GVWR combined? You have 2 axles, 4 hubs, 8 tires on the gooseneck than 1 axle, 2 hubs, and 2 tires braking on the bumper trailer. More tires contacting the ground, better stability, better braking because of this. Bumper pull trailers lift the front end off the ground unlike the goosenecks that transfer some weight to the front axle. Most gooseneck trailer's can stop a loaded truck without the help from the truck. Some have electric over hydraulic brakes but most are electric and when maintained properly will work when you want them.

Our 1 ton trucks pulls a tandem dual axle trailer with both axles braking. The GVWR of the truck is 13k and the trailer is 24k so it should have a GCVWR of 37k. As long as we don't weigh more than our GCVWR of 37k then we are safe. Now if we were grossing over that then we wouldn't be safe. As long as you don't overload any axle or set of tandem axles and under the GCVWR of the truck and trailer's GVWR combined then your safe. That is what they will look at if an accident occurs not the manufacturer's GCVWR. The manufacturer's GCVWR is not set by law and exceeding that with the proper trailer does not mean that you are unsafe.
 

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Senior Member
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Discussion Starter #9
The commercial weight restrictions are many and varied. I haul overweight all the time. the permit tells me what roads to drive on. the time of day I can drive and where I can park. Most roads have a weight rating when they are built. I am also told how many axles I must have on my tractor and trailer. that way the weight of the load is distributed properly. length of the commercial truck is also regulated by law. But Commercial trucking with a class 8 truck is a different ball game than running a over weight Pickup truck:nunu:.
 

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i have to disagree on this. how often do you 3/4 & 1 ton trucks hauling way more than they are designed for? it is not uncommon for these trucks to be pulling gooseneck trailers with hay,equipment, nursery,cattle & so forth with electric brakes that may or may not work when they need them to. i have hauled loads with my 1 ton truck that i shouldn't have but did anyway. i also have hauled cattle with a 50 ft. livestock trailer grossing 85K, while this was too much it didn't strain the equipment as much accordingly as the gooseneck does the ton truck.
a suspension system or tires that are overloaded is overloaded, plain and simple. someone teach me how to post pictures, and i can show you what a class 8 truck and dump trailer looks like that rolled from a spring hanger breaking due to being overloaded. i bought the truck from a local buisness, and my brothers wrecker service was the one that cleaned up the mess. it makes no difference in the vehicle or trailer. the real difference is the number of people hurt or killed, and the amount of money that get's spent when a big truck crashes. also, for those that think air brakes cant fail, you can think again on that one too. there is a certain amount of common sense that goes with driveing, and even more so with towing large loads, if one lacks the common sense to tow, and understand the issue's that can come with towing, they need to leave their trailer at home, or get someone that knows what they are doing to do it for them.
 

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An overloaded semi still has to fall within the bridge law even with a permit. That is why they have more axles and the longer length. Most trucks have 40k tandems with a GVWR of 52k but on a set of tandems you cannot load more than 34k legally by law but a split axle trailer can have 40k legally. Grossing 85k in a semi is normal. The heavy hauler trucks are the same as any other truck except for the occasional pusher axle. A normal semi without a pusher axle can pull 150k or more with the right trailer set up but has to get a permit since it is over 80k. Even though the trucks are designed to pull 80k they are still safe pulling 150k. These are usually escorted not because they can't stop and are unsafe which are safe but usually because they are too wide or too long or both.

How do the manufacturers come up with the GCVWR? To get the GCVWR you take the truck's and trailer's GVWR and add them to get the GCVWR. I think that the manufacturers come up with the GCVWR so that it can pull at X speed and maintain that speed up hills. Because if you look the higher the rear end the lower the GCVWR.

So is a 1 ton truck pulling a bumper trailer that is tandem axle with singles with one braking axle at the manufacturers GCVWR max safer than somebody pulling a gooseneck trailer with tandem duals with both axles braking at the max GCVWR that is set with the truck's and the trailer's GVWR combined? You have 2 axles, 4 hubs, 8 tires on the gooseneck than 1 axle, 2 hubs, and 2 tires braking on the bumper trailer. More tires contacting the ground, better stability, better braking because of this. Bumper pull trailers lift the front end off the ground unlike the goosenecks that transfer some weight to the front axle. Most gooseneck trailer's can stop a loaded truck without the help from the truck. Some have electric over hydraulic brakes but most are electric and when maintained properly will work when you want them.

Our 1 ton trucks pulls a tandem dual axle trailer with both axles braking. The GVWR of the truck is 13k and the trailer is 24k so it should have a GCVWR of 37k. As long as we don't weigh more than our GCVWR of 37k then we are safe. Now if we were grossing over that then we wouldn't be safe. As long as you don't overload any axle or set of tandem axles and under the GCVWR of the truck and trailer's GVWR combined then your safe. That is what they will look at if an accident occurs not the manufacturer's GCVWR. The manufacturer's GCVWR is not set by law and exceeding that with the proper trailer does not mean that you are unsafe.
very good point. i asked this question about a year ago when one of these overload debates arose, and all i got was silence. i will ask it again. [dont have the numbers on any of this in front of me, just going on memory.] with the only difference being the gear ratio[4.30] what is it about a ford dually tow boss that make it any safer to pull the higher weight ford rates it for, then a ford dually [same year model] with a 4.10 gear ratio. some more food for thought. what is it about a new model 3/4 ton ford, that makes it safer to haul/tow as much weight as a dual wheel f350 from lets say around the 96'/97' era? the dually of course has more rubber on the ground, and higher capacity tires, so how can ford say it can carry a similar weight capacity? the newest half tons are basicly carrying tow rateing's that 10 old 3/4 ton's were. how can that be? they are not running the springs, 10ply tires, vehicle weight itself, ratio's, bigger engine, etc; that the older 3/4 ton were/are.
 

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truckn'
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If you guys are saying that a 85k lb semi is as dangerous as an overloaded one ton you are seriously mistaken and have no idea what your talking about, probably because youve never driven a semi....the ONLY reason trucks are limited to 80k is so all the roads in the US dont end up like michigan roads. 18 wheelers are rated for MUCH MUCH more then what they are legaly allowed to haul.
 

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truckn'
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a suspension system or tires that are overloaded is overloaded, plain and simple. someone teach me how to post pictures, and i can show you what a class 8 truck and dump trailer looks like that rolled from a spring hanger breaking due to being overloaded. i bought the truck from a local buisness, and my brothers wrecker service was the one that cleaned up the mess. it makes no difference in the vehicle or trailer. the real difference is the number of people hurt or killed, and the amount of money that get's spent when a big truck crashes. also, for those that think air brakes cant fail, you can think again on that one too. there is a certain amount of common sense that goes with driveing, and even more so with towing large loads, if one lacks the common sense to tow, and understand the issue's that can come with towing, they need to leave their trailer at home, or get someone that knows what they are doing to do it for them.

usually its due to lack of maintanance...hundreds of thousands of miles take their toll on semis, parts need to be replaced and INSPECTED on a regular bases. usually when this happends its because your driver hopped a curb or something stupid. Ive never heard of a new truck being loaded at any weight, and the spring just breaks sitting there.
 

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SLAPS President
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the ONLY reason trucks are limited to 80k is so all the roads in the US dont end up like michigan roads. 18 wheelers are rated for MUCH MUCH more then what they are legaly allowed to haul.
Bingo!

There is a huge difference between being over what you are licensed to haul and being over what the truck is rated to haul.

navistar,

One needs to remember that Ford can't just slap a label on the truck and say, "this is how much it can haul/weigh". They have to get the vehicle certified by the USDOT before it can carry that label. That certification process involves tests on not just the springs, but the brakes, braking distances, tires, rims, etc...

Can these trucks safely haul more than they are rated for? Honestly, we don't know. We don't know because Ford did not get them certified to do so. It appears some people are prepared to guess. Those that do so, put not only themselves but the other people on the road with them in jeopardy when they make that guess.. If they guess right, nobody gets hurt. If they guess wrong, people may die....

From a legal proceedings standpoint (lawsuit, criminal charges, etc...), unless these folks go to the trouble and expense to get their vehicle recertified, making that guess (even if they are correct) is still not going to help them, since they will have nothing concrete to support their presumption.....

Finally, one last point on the subject of guessing whether a truck can haul more than it is rated for. One must remember that even though virtually every one of these parts has a safety margin built into them, that margin is not there so you can go up to that point. It is there to handle things like the additional load (caused by g-forces) that an evasive maneuver or panic stop will put on those parts. If somebody static loads a vehicle up to or near what they guess that margin is (because no manufacturer is going to publish those numbers), they have certainly exceeded what those parts can take in an emergency situation. At that point, they can spin it anyway they want, the simple truth is, they are operating unsafely.
 

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Then why every year do the manufacturers change the GCVWR and keeping most of the things the same except for the body style. If DOT did regulate this then it would say 1 tons are limited to this weight, 3/4 tons limited to this weight, 1.5 tons limited to this weight, 2 tons limited to this weight, similar to the gross weight of semi's and then it would not be up to the manufacturers to determine their so called GCVWR and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the DOT doesn't do this. That would mean all manufacturer's would be the same and you won't have to dig around and find that GCVWR for that truck. The GVWR is located on the door with the axle ratings but no GCVWR. GCVWR is GVWR of the truck and the GVWR of the trailer combined.

If you keep the load less than the axle ratings then your safe and I don't see a problem. Most DOT officers think they are god with that badge and think the law is what they want it to be when its not. Even if your legal the DOT will search that truck for anything they can write a ticket for because they think every truck is unsafe.
 

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SLAPS President
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Then why every year do the manufacturers change the GCVWR and keeping most of the things the same except for the body style. If DOT did regulate this then it would say 1 tons are limited to this weight, 3/4 tons limited to this weight, 1.5 tons limited to this weight, 2 tons limited to this weight, similar to the gross weight of semi's and then it would not be up to the manufacturers to determine their so called GCVWR and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the DOT doesn't do this. That would mean all manufacturer's would be the same and you won't have to dig around and find that GCVWR for that truck. The GVWR is located on the door with the axle ratings but no GCVWR. GCVWR is GVWR of the truck and the GVWR of the trailer combined.....
The government (USDOT) is not going to tell manufacturers how to build their trucks. Doing so would potentially have a negative affect the bottom line of a manufacturer and they aren't gonna go there. Simple as that. If the manufacturers want to change the ratings and go to the expense of getting the vehicle certified at the new rate, that is their business and Uncle Sam isn't going to step in and say no. But rest assured, before that vehicle gets the increased certification you see on the label, it MUST pass the USDOT tests...

On the topic of springs........ People look at a spring pack, count the leaves and presume it is the same as previous years and/or other models. In most cases, they may be right, but just looking at them, you don't KNOW that to be true. Different springs can look very similar and be physically interchangeable but have very different spring rates. The same is true for coils. I remember back in the late 70's Pontiac had 2 different front springs for the Trans Am. The standard springs and the WS6 package springs. Physically, both springs looked very similar on the car but the WS6 spring had a higher spring rate.

Most DOT officers think they are god with that badge and think the law is what they want it to be when its not. Even if your legal the DOT will search that truck for anything they can write a ticket for because they think every truck is unsafe.
And most folks think if they haven't been stopped/ticketed, then they must be legal (which is not correct either)....
 

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I never said have the DOT tell the manufacturers how to build trucks. I know that the axles, springs, and other things are rated by the DOT but not the GCVWR. And I also have been saying don't exceed the axle ratings.

I have been saying that the GCVWR that the manufacturers gives is not law. I have also said if your within your GCVWR that is determined by the trailer and truck GVWR then your safe. I said previously if the DOT did limit this then make it a law like 1 tons must not exceed 30k, 3/4 tons must not exceed 23k, etc., and under any circumstances you must not exceed axle ratings at any time. That is not telling them how to build trucks but giving a limit like the semis that is law.

But the way the DOT limits it now especially in Texas is by the GVWR of the trailer and the GVWR of the truck to get the GCVWR. There are a lot of 1 ton hot shot rigs out there that can legally haul 36k or more legally and they travel in many different states. How does the DOT let them do that if it is over the supposed GCVWR of the manufacturers? Oh yeah thats right by combining the GVWR of the truck and trailer to get GCVWR like the law reads.
 

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truckn'
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i dont even remember what "the" question is anymore.
 

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If you guys are saying that a 85k lb semi is as dangerous as an overloaded one ton you are seriously mistaken and have no idea what your talking about, probably because youve never driven a semi....the ONLY reason trucks are limited to 80k is so all the roads in the US dont end up like michigan roads. 18 wheelers are rated for MUCH MUCH more then what they are legaly allowed to haul.
first off, i own them, i work on them and use them in my construction buisness, have been doing so for over 20 years. yes if any semi is loaded wrong, it's just as dangerous, and yes from a legal standpoint which is the point some of these guys is trying to make, you can be just as liable. what you can get away with weight wise with many otr trucks, you cant with construction or logging type trucks. i have seen over the road trucks converted to dump's, or used in logging operation snap springs like twigs, plain and simple. just because it has 8 wheels back there dosent mean that all trucks are created equally. if you are indeed a trucker, you know this, the average person dosent. as for your second post, seeing a overloaded truck break a spring just sitting there. dont quite know what to make of that, but point of fact i have never seen it either. i do know i can run one of my backhoes [7 to 8 tons depending on the machine] or my dozers [ 8 or 9 tons depending on the machine] all the way up to the neck of my gooseneck on a one ton, or hitch on the tagalong trailer behind my single axle dump, and no tires blow or springs snap. how far down the road do you think i can make it with a load like that before the truck looses control, or the right little bump make's something go snap, or god willing the d.o.t comes along and stops me from the likely catastrophie i'am soon to create?
 

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'Ol Builder guy
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If you guys are saying that a 85k lb semi is as dangerous as an overloaded one ton you are seriously mistaken and have no idea what your talking about, probably because youve never driven a semi....the ONLY reason trucks are limited to 80k is so all the roads in the US dont end up like michigan roads. 18 wheelers are rated for MUCH MUCH more then what they are legaly allowed to haul.
That's right! the roads dictate the weight limits. Would anyone be silly enough to believe every truck manufacturer rates eavry single 18 wheeler at exactly 80,000 lbs?
 
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