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Hacky!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, I am sure most of you have seen this by now, because it is in both ford news and Navistar news headings. But to get the scoop, you can go to navistars or fords website and look for yourself.

But this is what I can most honestly say at this point. Now I just read the current issue of Fleet Owner Magazine. In their they had the topic of Navistar buying out GM medium duty. Now I know Navistar is putting their diesels in the medium duty line up of GM, with the GM gas option. But they also had suttle briefings of the future of GM diesels, that may have IH diesels in the pickup line. Now you can say what you want. But I truly believe this is positioningleveraging them into the GM trucks. So if GM has IH diesels in their 2010 or 2011 trucks, you heard it here first. But if not, you can disregard it.
 

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Hacky!
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Don't shoot the messenger. Until someone else reads that article from Fleet owner and can tell me different, then we can talk. But never say never. I would have never thought the relationship between ford and IH would stoop to this level. But in retrospect of your question, IH can build engines cheaper-meaning lower cost of production because they have a broader market range to disburse the cost over than say GM. I am just reporting what I read. I am not saying it is going to happen for certain, but only that it might possibly happen and don't be alarmed if it does. Not starting rumors or fictitious material, again only reporting what I read, and trying to pry any other info from someone else that may know more.
 

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'Ol Builder guy
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Guys, I think we can safely assume that GM will keep the DMAX in light diesel trucks. GM still makes the light trucks on their assembly lines, they still own the DMAX plant in Moraine, Ohio and they still own the Allison 1000 transmission plant in Baltimore MD.

In the light-medium duty trucks, I would think the DMAX will still remain in the 4500-5500, too.

Now ponder this: If IH builds Ford's MD's, why don't Ford 650-750's have DT466's in them? Why Cummins?

So if IH is gonna built the 6500-8500 GM trucks, isn't it possible they'll have CAT or 7.8L DMAX power in them, too?

I don't think it's impossible that IH power finds its' way into GM medium/heavy trucks, but if Ford mediums have CAT or Cummins power, then GM may have non-IH power in them, too.
 

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TDG Mafia # 81
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1,903 Posts
After the troubles that Ford and IH have had in the past few years, I dont think that GM corprate will take a outstanding leap of faith and put IH engines into the light duty trucks, not after the fact that the Duramax lineup has been doing really well for itself. Not saying that the Duramax is better than IH, but thus far the GM lineup has been doing pretty well for itself. Yes it had some growing pains, but so did the Powerstroke (or did everyone forget about the injector failures when those first came out?).

Just my 0.02

Tony
 

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Senior Member
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497 Posts
I thought that they were putting isuzu engines Duramax in the halftons and also isnt Toyota going to put an isuzu in the tacomas? I thought that they said that in dieselpower mag.
 

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Super Moderator
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http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKN2857786920080228?rpc=44

The suit brought by Navistar on behalf of it's operating arm, International Truck and Engine Corp was REFILED after mediation failed to resolve the issue. That should be no supprise to anyone.

According to Reuters previous reporting, Navistar has a contract with Ford thru the 2012 model year to supply "all diesel engines for use in light trucks". Ford has published it's intent to self-source the 4.4L Rover diesel (Ford Europe) for the 2010 (or so) F-series and other vehicles. If there is a contract between Ford and Navistar valid until 2012, this is a CLEAR VIOLATION of that contract, and $100M would be a small penalty because Ford already paid about $32M to Navistar when it abandoned the 4.5L PSD a few years ago. That amount simply made Navistar "whole", covered R&D costs to go from the already developed 6.0L to the 4.5L.

Navistar looks to be moving forward with it's deal with GM to aquire "all class 4-8 truck products lines". I am not 100% sure what a "Class 4" vehicle is, but I *think* it is one size up from a 1-ton.

Industry reports state that thru 2010, Navistar, via it's International Truck division, will "produce the GM products on their own assembly lines, but GM will retain marketing and distribution rights".

The DuraMax deal with GM is up in 2010, I personally would expect CAT to become unavailable in the GM class 4-8 lines, and International to add the "MaxxForce" brand in lieu of CAT. Maybe retain DuraMax?

What will happen after 2010 is anyones guess, none of the stake holders are talking about FUTURE plans. But it seems that Navistar just sewed up a 75% market share.
 

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Hacky!
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1,197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
John G, you are absolutely right. I have stayed up to date with all IH info and so forth. Now to answer Duke: Duke, IH does not supply ford with the 466 because IH has exclusive rights to the 466 and therefore, draws customers to buy IH trucks then. If Ford put an IH engine in their trucks, it would possibly take market share away from IH, not necessarily profits, but market share. Then the only thing ford on it would be the sheet metal and the chassis and engine would be IH. That is the reason why IH does not offer Ford the 466. And GM will eventually be using all IH diesels w/gas options in their medium duty truck, and that is according to Fleet Owner magazine. but GM will still sell Isuzu trucks.
 

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'Ol Builder guy
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binderpower said:
John G, you are absolutely right. I have stayed up to date with all IH info and so forth. Now to answer Duke: Duke, IH does not supply ford with the 466 because IH has exclusive rights to the 466 and therefore, draws customers to buy IH trucks then. If Ford put an IH engine in their trucks, it would possibly take market share away from IH, not necessarily profits, but market share. Then the only thing ford on it would be the sheet metal and the chassis and engine would be IH. That is the reason why IH does not offer Ford the 466. And GM will eventually be using all IH diesels w/gas options in their medium duty truck, and that is according to Fleet Owner magazine. but GM will still sell Isuzu trucks.
Well if IH was scared to put IH diesels in Ford trucks built by IH, then wouldn't it stand to reason that IH wouldn't put IH engines in the GM trucks they build for GM for the exact same reason?

I bet IH puts other brands of diesels in the GM trucks for many reasons, but one of them would be so people won't only have the sheetmetal difference left to decide between a GM or IH medium/heavy.
 

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Hacky!
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
DUKE, I think you are missing my point. IH is now going to fully own GM medium duty so it would only be wise for them to use their own powerplant-vertical integration. IH doesn't own Ford, they are only in a joint venture. Again IH wants potential customers to buy their trucks and give them a reason to buy their trucks over the competitors. With the 466IH feels they have the edge on the competition. More sales, more money in pocket. So IH keeps the GM badge on the trucks but with the exclusive right to 466/570
 

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'Ol Builder guy
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binderpower said:
DUKE, I think you are missing my point. IH is now going to fully own GM medium duty so it would only be wise for them to use their own powerplant-vertical integration. IH doesn't own Ford, they are only in a joint venture. Again IH wants potential customers to buy their trucks and give them a reason to buy their trucks over the competitors. With the 466IH feels they have the edge on the competition. More sales, more money in pocket. So IH keeps the GM badge on the trucks but with the exclusive right to 466/570
While I don't dispute that, IH doesn't "own" GM trucks in the way you might think. Remember, from what they're saying, GM dealers will still be selling and profiting from selling the IH built GM trucks at GM dealerships. GM will still make a heck of a lot of profit when they sell a GM medium/heavy at a GM dealership. So if IH engines go into them, a potential IH medium heavy sale from an IH dealer is LOST and all the profits that go with it.

So let's say IH builds a GMC 7500 with a DT466 in it. It goes to a GM dealer. A customer trying to decide between GM and IH buys that truck from a GMC dealer because it has a DT466 in it. Then GM and the GM dealer makes a profit.

Wouldn't you think that the IH dealer that lost the sale of an IH truck to a GM dealer with a GMC truck with a DT466 is gonna be upset? Sure they are.

So what I'm saying is that IH will lose sales to GM if they give away the "diamond shoved up the goat's azz", which in this case, is the DT series diesel. Even IH produces the trucks for GM, GM will still profit from the sale and IH loses from the loss of a sale!
 

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Hacky!
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Duke, my intention here is not to argue or cry over spilled milk. I really think your interpretation and my interpretation of the future of GM medium duty is like me trying to tell you a brunette is really a blonde.

From what I read, IH/Nav will eventually have sole proprietorship of GM medium duty etc and become another brand under the Nav. umbrella, and have more market share because of those who are brand loyal such as that of the topkick and kodiak. They are in reality buying an IH, but with a Kodiak nameplate and sheetmetal.

Case in point: John deere acquired hitachi. The hitachi is basically a John deere, but badged Hitachi. So now they not only keep the john deere customers, but now have gained loyal hitachi customers. Vertical integration, plus increased market share.
 

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'Ol Builder guy
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7,051 Posts
binderpower said:
Duke, my intention here is not to argue or cry over spilled milk. I really think your interpretation and my interpretation of the future of GM medium duty is like me trying to tell you a brunette is really a blonde.

From what I read, IH/Nav will eventually have sole proprietorship of GM medium duty etc and become another brand under the Nav. umbrella, and have more market share because of those who are brand loyal such as that of the topkick and kodiak. They are in reality buying an IH, but with a Kodiak nameplate and sheetmetal.

Case in point: John deere acquired hitachi. The hitachi is basically a John deere, but badged Hitachi. So now they not only keep the john deere customers, but now have gained loyal hitachi customers. Vertical integration, plus increased market share.
That's the problem-nobody really knows how much of GM's MD/HD division was sold. Was it just production or was it everything?

If it was everything, like you might be suggesting, then why would GM sell the trucks through their dealerships? They're not running a charity. LOL

The way I see it, GM has sold only production to IH. IH now builds the trucks for GM as a subcontractor, but GM still gets to sell their trucks for a profit.

Now if the trucks are sold as GM trucks at IH dealerships, then I would think you are right.

We shall see, but as of right now, we don't have enough info and to be perfectly honest, I haven't had much time to read about it lately.
 

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Euro Sparky/ Wrencher
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Duke i did read some of the article in the Diesel Progress {TM}magaizne[ Feb 08 edition*] and they did mention a spinoff from the GM MD divison to the IH corp. for undisclosed amout and ATM,.. they should be finalized anytime soon after the antitrust commite approve it and the IH will take over the GM med truck divison but leave the pickup line alone that will stay with the GM because they can contracted on their line protaito [ sorta like a picture if you get my drift ] but i dont know if they will rebadged the GM truck to the IH.

just like IH did brought out the Workhorse company it used be part of GM divison before.


Merci, Marc

* a side note i try to aptemted to paste the info but it wont link in here for some reason.
 

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'Ol Builder guy
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I have no problem believing that, but if that's the case, then why even put "GMC" or "bowtie" badges on them? I would think they would then just be IH trucks with navistar motors in them.

We shall see.
 

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Super Moderator
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Duke,

From what I can tell, Navistar is going to build GM class 4-8 products in International plants under the GM brand until 2010. At that point, from what I have read on Reuters.com, it APPEARS that Navistar will not only OWN, produce, and market the GM line, but it will continue to do so thru the GM dealer network. All that looks to change in 2010, is Navistar will source all the engines internally, with the possible option of CAT power. It seems ISUZU/Duramax is out for 2010, as are the COE's fro ISUZU.
 

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Euro Sparky/ Wrencher
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John G.

Thanks for sharing little more info on this one. therefore i do have one question to speak up with you.,, the Diesel Progress magianize did not mention too much with the gasoline power plants but will they have the " rights " to purschae the GM gas engine during that teture and after 2010 will they keep that option or the will drop out that time ?? [ i know there is not many MD gas engine in the market currently ]

Merci, Marc
 

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Super Moderator
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Marc,

I know that International (a division of Navistar) bought "WorkHorse Custom Chassis" from GM a few years ago, and are using GM sourced gas engines for those.

I think that it's safe to assume....... GM will continue to source gas engines into the future.
 

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Hacky!
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
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