The Diesel Garage banner

Non vgt towing issues

27K views 48 replies 15 participants last post by  SallyPearsons  
#1 ·
Non VGT towing and why they don’t work………

I tried to explain this issue to a customer today and figured I’d try here as well. Many have asked if a non VGT can be tuned or modified to tow like or better than OEM, the short answer is no.
A few have asked but why? “the big rigs use fixed turbines, why can’t I? ”

A duty specific engine is designed for a VERY narrow rpm band, maybe 1000 rpm or so. With so many limits, engineers can “tweek” everything for maximum torque within the design window. The other issues are total displacement, exhaust velocity, cam design, etc.
Ford and IH had to allow for normal driving, the ability to haul 19K lbs and provide a 100K mile warrantee. To this add our old friend the EPA and its impressive the PSD can do what it does. Yes tuning, machine work, and a litany of other mods can make a non vgt simular to VGT towing, but not without compromises.

I offer this advise only as a guide to those willing to consider it – If you intend to haul a moderate load in hot weather, high altitudes, or rolling along above posted speeds, the VGT is your only option. If however you want a 8K lb play toy a non VGT can be fun, just be willing to make considerable sacrifices to get there.

Hopefully this will help a few decide what they really want the F series 6.0 to be. :thumbsup


:txflag

Wekiwa
 
#5 ·
:thumbdown
go away. Don't clog up this thread too. Wekiwa has much much much much much much...........................................................................................................................much much much more experience with turbo's than you. Please do not turn this thread into a nut-swingin, cheerleadin fight like the other threads have been becoming. Lurk in the shadows for once (for the good of everyone else and this site).
 
#3 ·
:popcorn
 
#4 ·
, exhaust velocity, etc.

, or rolling along above posted speeds, the VGT is your only option. If however you want a 8K lb play toy a non VGT can be fun, just be willing to make considerable sacrifices to get there.

Hopefully this will help a few decide what they really want the F series 6.0 to be. :thumbsup


:txflag

Wekiwa
Explain this to me. how will a non vgt not work at high speeds. Mine loves 85mph. it runs 10lbs boost at 950 for egts. at higher speeds/rpms you get more exhaust velocity equalling better spool of a non vgt
:thumbsup
 
#6 ·
As I tried to explain above the post is intended WHEN TOWING.

Try this, find a friend with a large trailer, put about 12000 lbs on it, drive around your area and post your findings.

:thumbsup

Wekiwa
 
  • Like
Reactions: StrokerDude
#8 ·
So you have to run 85mphs to keep a non vgt spooled? or tow at 85mph with 19Klbs behind you :eek: Holy hell :fan
 
#11 ·
As stated before, I towed 5k a few weeks ago and at around 65-70 mph, 2000 rpm and around 10-15lbs of boost the truck pulled great. Anything below that speed my truck lugged and sooted up bad. I would have to mash the throttle or put it in tow haul at lower speed just to keep the turbo lit.
 
#12 ·
Unfortunately, your experience is typical of non VGT towing. Below 2200 rpm, the PSD 6.0 liter doesn’t produce enough drive pressure to generate much power with a fixed geometry turbine. Additionally, you probably won’t need much over 7500 lbs to prevent towing completely on a public highway with a slight grade….

Just for clarification, I have removed non VGT turbo’s from most suppliers, all with similar results. Its not a product issue, but one of misapplication. The laws of physics are very unforgiving……


:txflag

Wekiwa
 
#16 ·
i think a non vgt could work if you kept it small enough. no brentos could not to with that setup but thats not what that truck was entended for. if you run something like a 58mm with a small exhaust housing i think it could work. dont get me wrong i think you would be better off running a vgt but i think it can be done with the proper tuning.
 
#18 ·
What is proper tuning? keeping the TC unlocked?
 
#22 ·
just trying to learn, that's why i ask.
 
#26 ·
:damnit

I don't think this thread needs to go down this track...:fan
 
#28 ·
I think we need a company that does compound kits cheap and we can all run NON-VGT :haha
 
#29 ·
I'm with Bill on this one!


I am curious why you have to be such a dumb**** all the time??? Seriously why cant you get a "1004hp" 6.0 into the tens? :haha:haha:haha My little 6.4 ran 12.00 @7600lbs and it only makes 590 on a dynojet.. :wedgie
AND AGAIN I SAY....
:damnit

I don't think this thread needs to go down this track...:fan
Many of us are gettin real sick of the constant bickering about turbos. It's getting worse than how the big-oil threads in the 7.3 section were. This thread was obviously not started just for it to turn into a fight. Be reasonable folks...
 
#32 ·
Im sick of it,And the guys in red im sure are even more sickened by it all..

Image

Please keep thread on track and enuf of the Childplay. I like every one on this site and don't want to see them with banned under their name but will happen if need be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: plainredtruck
#33 ·
TEX from FTE

TEX2505 on FTE has a non VGT and tows all the time. He could add some insight with real numbers. It is a Spartan Turbo with Spartan tuning. He seems very happy with it so far.
 
#35 ·
TEX2505 on FTE has a non VGT and tows all the time. He could add some insight with real numbers. It is a Spartan Turbo with Spartan tuning. He seems very happy with it so far.

i see you have an elite ss, have you and your ffriend got together to see what a back to back results are. it would be interesting reading
 
#37 ·
well, I can't get my converter to lock in 5th or 6th... while running the non VGT I couldn't be in 6th gear unless I was coasting down hill and 5th would keep myi EGTs in check some but still was dumping a chit load of smoke... Just ask any of the guys down at smokin this year..
 
#40 · (Edited)
manuals have TC's :eek: where the heck does the clutch go LOL
 
#44 ·
new emissions big rigs use VGT also, the 550HP Cummins in the W900 Kenworth I worked on a few weeks back, that company had 3 new 08s with vgt turbos, cat uses a compound setup, so if they aren't vgt, that'd be why..
 
#48 ·
He was last seen 12 years ago ................... suggest you contact KCTurbo